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The Curious Krewe Podcast
One question, many voices. Curious Krewe invites real people into thoughtful, listening-first conversations that turn curiosity into connection.
The Curious Krewe Podcast
Open Opposites: Listening Across Differences
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What does it take to stay open when the stakes are personal and the views across the table feel miles apart? We dive into the messy, human work of understanding people we disagree with, sharing stories from healthcare, EMS, and family life where curiosity isn’t a slogan—it’s a survival skill. Our north star is simple and hard: respect beats being right. From there, we practice listening without interrupting, asking better questions, and building “brave spaces” where safety is supported but never assumed.
We talk honestly about boundaries as an act of love, especially when conversations become harmful or dismissive of identity. You’ll hear how we use role clarity and purpose to steer high-stakes interactions: saving a life makes ideology feel smaller. We unpack the hidden variable that powers empathy—security. When basic needs and emotional bandwidth are low, self-preservation takes over; when they’re met, curiosity has room to breathe. That realism threads the episode: sometimes the kindest move is to disengage; sometimes it’s to lean in with a question that reveals the value beneath a viewpoint.
Along the way, we trade green flags for trust—regulated nervous systems, shared urgency, the ability to laugh—and admit where we stumble. We examine anger as a transitional emotion, the pain calculus of staying open, and the challenge of being a “student of the person” when family dynamics or workplace norms complicate everything. If you’ve ever wondered how to protect your peace without closing your heart, this conversation offers language, tools, and lived examples you can use today.
Special Guests (and first-time CK'ers) Rhys Lombardo and Theo Crane join in on this curious conversation.
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Until then, Stay Curious!
Do you ever wish for a place where you can ask real questions without a fight? Do you ever want to sit with people who see the world differently than you and still feel connected? Do you ever crave a circle that listens more than it lectures and leaves you a little more human than when you arrived? If this is you, welcome to the Curious Crew Podcast. One honest question with many voices and with real connection. It's where we listen first and we practice curiosity with kindness and then become curious friends together. So without further ado, let's get curious. Hey y'all, welcome to the Curious Crew podcast where we believe that curiosity leads to connection. So each episode, we pose one curious question voted on by the Curious Crew to our panel of curious people, and we get curious about our thoughts and perspectives, and hopefully grow into uh curious friends together.
Colette:Just like uh every month in person, more details on that later. We're gonna get warmed up and kick things off by having the folks around the table with us share their name and their answer to the curious quickie. If you were a beverage, what beverage would you be? Oh my, who wants to go first?
Rhys:So, how adult are we allowed to be?
Sam:Super adult, because we're all adults. We're all adults. Well, in most situations, I was thinking about this.
Rhys:I would be a Stella Artois.
Sam:Continue.
Rhys:Crisp, classy, and a wonderful finish.
Sam:Okay, okay, okay.
Rhys:And my name is Reese. Thank you for having me.
Sam:Yeah. Reese, also known as Stella Antois.
Rhys:Artois.
Sam:Artois.
Colette:That beer. Pardon me. The fancy ass beer.
Sam:Oh, you're a fancy ass beer?
Rhys:Fancy ass. You've never heard of Stella Artois.
Sam:Listen, look at me.
Colette:I mean Does he look like he's drinking Stella Artois?
Sam:No. No. Well, you would be incorrect.
Rhys:Well, that I want you to report back, have one in the next week, and you tell me if you've been living.
Sam:Okay. Okay. I can do that. I can do that. Well, I can follow that really easy because uh most of you don't know. I have some weird dietary issues. So I drink an excessive amount of water. Okay. And so I have actual di I look at water as actually different little types of water. So my favorite water is actually comes from Aldi's. It's sparkling water, it's unflavored, it's called View. And uh it's like me. It's got just the right amount of crispness, uh, but eventually it goes flat pretty quick. And uh here reading yourself. Okay, that's right. And and if you really want to have a good Friday night, you can put a little bit of a lime wedge in it, and uh I'll let you just really going crazy with that lime wedge. I said it was a Friday.
Rhys:We're comparing this to our personalities. I think you should choose a different.
Sam:Hey, I'm just saying this how I exist. That's that's me as a beverage.
Rhys:No, I love it. Thank you.
Sam:Waters are different, aren't they?
Theo:Yeah, yeah. Huh. It almost changed my answer. Almost. Um I my name is Theo, um, and I would be uh chocolate coconut water. Oh yeah, that's your thing. Yes, and it's finally here. Yeah. Oh my god, because the first place I had it was in New York, and so I didn't think it was, but um, okay. It it and and it's so coconut water is not inherently creamy. No, no, but this adds a creaminess without changing the texture of coconut water. So it's like all the good stuff of coconut water plus chocolate.
Colette:Yeah, I mean. Yeah, I could get behind that, like a mounds and a drink.
Sam:Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Colette:Yeah. Hmm. I'm Colette. Um, my pronouns are the and them. Let's see, what what would my drink be? Um, I don't know, probably root beer. I've loved it for so long. I even used to make it like Zataran's used to have a concentrate.
Sam:Oh, yeah.
Colette:And I would make it with just flat tap water.
Sam:Oh.
Colette:Everyone around me thought it was absolutely vile and I could not get enough of it. Um why are you laughing at me so hard, Theo? What is Zataran's root beer mix? Why not? Why not? Yeah. It's Louisiana. Yeah.
Theo:That's that is that Louisiana in root beer. Root beer is Louisiana.
Colette:Well, no, like the the core ingredient um is sassafras is is produced here. And sugar cane is high is heavily produced in Louisiana. So root beer is like very quintessentially Louisiana in a lot of ways. Yeah. Um Okay. But and that's not what I'm trying to say about myself at all, is that I'm quintally because being quintessentially Louisiana feels like I'm just reading myself. What is this self-deprecation?
Sam:Yeah. Well, you're sassapras, your sweet sassafrasy or no.
Colette:Um I don't know. Like I'm an acquired taste. Some people hate me, some people love me. Yeah, that's what I think I'm trying to say. Okay. That I'm a polarizing figure in people's lives. But I like sweet and sassafras. That is we do. Yeah, you're not wrong, Reese. You, you're not wrong.
Sam:So I'll just start calling you sassafras then. That's good. I think I also forgot to say my name.
Rhys:I think you did. What is your name?
Sam:My name is Sam.
Rhys:Sam? Sam Sparkling Water Sam.
Sam:Sparkling Water Sam. Sassafras Calip. Tella. Ever rap, if you ever need a rap name.
Theo:Yeah, that's Sparkling Water Sam.
Sam:Yeah, watch me sell negative copies. There's a market. There's an audience, right? We'll try that out. We'll try that out.
Colette:Well, on the next episode of Curious Group, Sam, uh Theo's gonna teach Sam how to beatbox and rap. Um audio train wreck.
Theo:Lots of spit.
Colette:Well, now that we're all uh warmed up, we can move on to our curious question for the episode, which is how do you approach understanding someone whose views or beliefs are completely different from your own?
Sam:Ooh, that's a deep one. So just to frame things up, though, we do have some rules, but I we typically call it a code, the curious code. So here it is. It's real easy, but it's also real hard. Uh the first one is respect um beats being right. So we we respect each other, period. That's that's uh number one. The second one is we listen up, we try not to interrupt. I know it's hard to do with uh conversations sometimes, especially when we're really connecting, but uh try to listen uh really closely. Uh keep an open mind because hey, there's uh billions and billions of people in the world. That means there's probably billions and billions plus two perspectives of seeing it. Um the big one is we always respond with curiosity. So when somebody shares their answer, the goal is to always respond, not with what we want to offer into their to the conversation, but offer a question uh to understand it better, to dig into a part of what they said, uh, or what have you. And lastly, this is really just a wrap-up of all of them, is we just make this a safe space uh for everyone every time. So with that, let's get curious and just reiterate the question one more time, because this is a pretty big one. Uh, how do you approach understanding someone whose views or beliefs are completely different than yours? Ooh. Who wants to go first?
Colette:I'll go first. I have lots of thoughts about this.
Sam:I bet you do.
Colette:Yeah, so a lot of my work is around working with people who are vastly different from each other and from me. Uh and you know, working with clients and patients, the thing that, you know, the people that we're serving. Um I get this question a lot from my students is like, if somebody says something so morally objectionable to me that I just can't, you know, hardly stand being in the same room with them, then what do I do? Which is like the most extreme version of this question, I think. Um, and what I always tell folks is to be a student of the person. And because when you're a student, you're setting yourself uh in a in a position of potentially less power. Uh, but it also like gets you more curious about where they are and um allows you to take off all of your expertise and what you think you know about the person um uh and their beliefs and helps you um just like settle into the into the space with them and listen differently to the point of like what we're doing here as well. Um and then alongside that is trying to as much as I can have empathy for that person and like try to get in their shoes. Like, why does this person believe what they believe? Um asking that question, I don't know, just puts you in a different head space altogether of trying to understand rather than change someone's mind. I think, especially right now, we want to change a lot of people's minds. I know I do. Uh, but what that does is just get people defensive. And if you want to like open conversation with somebody who's different than you, you have to recognize that people are probably gonna be defensive, and that's okay. Um, but how do you, you know, connect with them in a way that brings down those defenses and helps them explore why they believe what they believe and also sharing what you believe is is all part of the equation. And so seeing that person as a expert in their own worldview, that I'm a student of their expertise, has helped me a lot um in connecting with a lot of people who are different than me. Um so yeah, that's my kind of simple answer to the more very complicated question.
Sam:So to hit the part you said in the most extreme, so what how do you handle someone who does share something or say something that is, you know, morally objection or ethically objectionable? Like I mean, I would assume it's the same framework, but also you know, yeah, it kind of depends on your role in their life.
Colette:You know, like the students that I'm working with, they're spiritual caregivers and leaders in their community. Um, they're trying to support people. And so when when that's happening, I just to kind of remind people that remember why you're there. You're not there to uh change people's minds, right? Um if you're trying to give care to somebody, that should be the last thing on your mind is trying to change them. Uh instead, it's to try and support them. And so what what is what they're saying trying to tell you about them? Um it's probably trying to, they're probably trying to tell you something about their values, their ethics, what's important to them. Um and so just remembering your role in their life. Now, I think it's a bit more tricky when it's like a peer-to-peer relationship, right? And it's like a friend or family. Family. Yeah. Yeah. Family is rough, it's probably the roughest one. And so trying to figure that out. I don't know if I have an answer to it. Um honestly, I'm that's probably dealing with family around issues that that we're like super different from. Um, I haven't had a lot of success, I'll just be really honest, within my family about this. So I feel like I I can do this literally everywhere else except for my family. But I think that's because both people, both parties have to be willing to be a student of the other person's experience. Like I think there's some sort of social contract that has to happen where both parties have to see each other as inherently good in order for that conversation to happen in a healthy way. And that hasn't necessarily been my experience of like that the people that I'm within my family that I'm talking to don't necessarily see me as like inherently good.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:Or um that my viewpoint is as good as theirs or whatever, you know. So um, I don't know, that's harder. Yeah. Um, and I think there is so much morally objectionable viewpoints out there right now, and um I kind of do feel like as much as we can, we should be trying to change some minds and hearts around stuff. Um but that can't be the only goal of conversations, is to get trying to get people to change. I quit that game a long time ago.
Rhys:Yeah. Yeah, and at what point So a lot of what you're saying is staying curious, the seeking first understand. But maybe to Sam's question, because it's a little bit of what I was thinking too, is at what point do you start to sacrifice some of your own well-being in the pursuit of seeking to understand? And at what point do you just say, you know what? I know that we're not mutually seeing each other in a respectful way, and if I engage in this conversation, it's going to be more hurtful than it is beneficial to my own self-esteem. Um because boundaries are unfortunately something we have to employ often.
Sam:Well, no, that's what I was thinking when when Colette talked about believing you know somebody's you know good and all that stuff. But empathy you were talking about. And in a way, I think giving uh setting a boundary is empathetic. Absolutely. Yeah, because you're like, hey, there's gonna be harm in this interaction. So the most compassionate, empathetic, you know, thing I could do is set a boundary and allow you not to progress any further to cause harm. Or to yourself. Right. Yeah.
Colette:Yeah. Uh my uh one of my educators, Tammy Woolver, she uh used to always quote, you know, and say, Love is boundaries, bound having boundaries is love. It's the most purest form of love that you can have. And I really agree with that because it's it's a form of love not just for the other person, but for yourself. And when you're if you're talking with somebody who isn't that you fix you feel like you're experiencing violence from, it is love to yourself to have a boundary to say, like, this is where I can no longer participate in this dynamic. Sure. Um I've definitely been there. I'm there right now with uh with certain family members. So I um like I said, I don't have the answer to it, but I do think boundaries are a part of this equation where if somebody can't see the harm that they're doing, even in the conversation, it's harder to have a conversation, right? Um if somebody doesn't see um that what they're saying is not just harmful on a on a philosophical level, but like on a personal level, right? Um for for me, it's like family sentiment around the LGBT community, um and uh and then differences in religious per perspective. Like these are deeply personal identity questions and topics that we're talking about. If they're being had in like a very like laxadaisical, willy-nilly kind of way, and you just say whatever messed up nonsense is on your mind about about that com about my community, I'm like, uh, I might be second guessing how I'm gonna interact with you in the future. So in that case, where there is potential harm, I think I enter the seeking to understand with a bit more guard and protection of the self for sure.
Rhys:Yeah.
Colette:It's a weird balance.
Rhys:Um and I think um I don't know if I'm following the Curious Crew principles here because I'm having a hard time not building on rather than just responding to the question.
Colette:Well, build. Build.
Rhys:We're gonna build. But I think it to your point, Colette, it is interesting in a workplace where, for example, there are expectations of proper use of my pronouns in the workplace. No matter who or where you come from, there is a professional standard that must be adhered to and must be followed. And I am grateful for those protections because if I set the standard, for example, hey, I'm Reese, he they pronouns, and somebody is just deliberately not using my pronouns accurately, that gives me some substance, right? To raise that, that doesn't happen to me, luckily. Um, but but then you take it out of context where you have those protections of it in the professional workplace and into family, into friendships, and it's a whole nother ballgame.
Colette:Yeah.
Rhys:Um, which you would think it's not, right? Right. Because family should be the ones who love you most transparently.
Sam:Um I wish. Where the you probably get hurt the most. Yeah, yeah.
Rhys:And where boundaries are needed the most.
Sam:Yeah. Yeah.
Colette:Any thoughts, Theo? Questions, thoughts?
Theo:Um Yeah, a bunch, but like uh I didn't want to build yes.
Colette:And we're we're in the building space. Oh yeah.
Theo:But like uh, but it honestly, everything you're saying is m making me realize the way I've been approaching people lately is with way more guard and scrutiny. Oh. Um, because I just don't want to be hurt. Like, I have enough that's already hurt me, that's currently hurt. Like, I have a very specific relationship to pain. Um, we were talking about this on the write over, and like but that's physical pain. Uh emotional pain is like as much as you go through it and as used to it as you get, it doesn't get any easier to deal with. Nope. Whereas physical pain, like, I've experienced a 13 out of 10 physical pain. And while I wouldn't want to go through it, I'd probably be better at it than I was the first time.
Sam:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Theo:My son hurt my feelings so badly the other day. Oh. He's one. He can't say complete sentences. Pulling diapers, correct? He's still in diapers? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Sam:Still shits himself.
Theo:Yeah. And it was like, it it reminded me of when I was nine years old, and the first time my mother said something that hurt my feelings. Like equal impact. You know, there's been nearly 40 years different, no change in my response. You know what I mean? And like I'm at a point in my life where I just I don't have I either have the bandwidth to fully pursue the things that I feel passionate about or deal with somebody who can't stand the fact that I'm doing that. Yeah. But not both. And so when I meet new people or when I look to expand a relationship, even, you know, because I compartmentalize a lot, but I'm sure everybody compartmentalizes to a degree. And like there's certain parts of yourself you you don't allow people until you can feel like you can trust them.
Sam:Yeah.
Theo:And even then, when there is a history and there is a backstory and you have all these things, I'm still just like it doesn't take much for me to shut it back down, you know, and like being curious and open, you have to have some of that available. And I'm just like prove it. Prove that this conversation is worth it. You prove it to me. Why should I come into it with curiosity and openness when you are giving me every every c every hint, every clue that like what you have to say is going to make me just retract my invitation.
Sam:Yeah.
Theo:You know, and so like I want to call it wisdom, but it's it's more just like a fear response.
Colette:Yeah. Um emotional survival. Yeah, yeah. Kind of demands some guardedness.
Theo:And so, like, because I like what everything you described is everything I want to do.
Colette:Yeah.
Theo:It's how I want to go into it. I want to go in with like an open mind and just make these clear-headed decisions in the moment, you know, but that requires a mastery of my own emotions that like I don't know if I have right now. You know, like but I still want to know. I still want to know more about people, I still want to get closer to people, I still want to have these experiences. Um but it also answers the question of like why it gets harder to make friends as you get older.
Sam:Oh, yeah, that's a good point.
Theo:Oh, I never thought about that. I didn't either. I didn't I I've always known it was a thing, but I didn't I didn't put that to that.
Sam:And I just thought, like, you get older, you just get less friends. You think they're dying. You think all those people know, you know. No, you've you've sectioned yourself off because of prior experience. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point.
Colette:Yeah. I remember when I like I so in 2020, I was like figuring out whether or not I was gonna get married, and um, one of my big things was like, I'm worried, you know, if I'm I'm afraid that she's gonna hurt me and that I'm not gonna be able to recover from that, or like the emotional pain was keeping me from like embracing the love, right? And I remember saying to my therapist when I finally reached like a point of being ready where I was like, okay, I think any pain I might endure is worth the love I might also experience. Yeah. And so like that's something that was one of those points in time where, and I brought that when I moved here to New Orleans, and I was uh telling Theo, like I moved to New Orleans, uh making a decision that my life is gonna be different than it was. And that was one of them was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna stay open even if it hurts. Um I'm yeah, also I call it pain calculus is like am I will yeah, Sam has heard that too many times for me. Um the the pain calculus is like is that hopefully the love outweigh the pain, right? Um, the connection, the whatever, the curiosity, the the openness that it all will outweigh any pain I might endure. But I also like I still am a bit pain averse emotion from an emotional perspective. I'm right there with you. I deal with chronic pain every day. I I would be happily, happily deal with physical pain over emotional pain every damn day of the week.
Sam:I think everybody would I think that's probably ubiquitously human. Yeah.
Rhys:Well, I think that the uh what I was hearing you say, which I love too, is you just need there's a certain bar of trust you need to see that that person is going to care for tenderly what you are divulging to them.
Sam:Yeah.
Rhys:And if it is not there, it's not worth it. Yeah. Um, I was just watching a podcast with Emma Watson. Emma Watson, Barry Potter, Watson. Oh, okay, yeah. And she was I loved it. She was talking about how she she hasn't acted, I think, in like seven or nine years. Really? Why? And she said it was really beautiful action. She was talking about how she is such a high performer, for example. She will go into anything with her whole heart, give everything to the project, to the movie, to the whatever, to Harry Potter, and she's a perfectionist. Yeah. And she got to a point where she it almost killed her, she said. Like it was extraordinarily painful because what she learned through that process was that not everybody cared about her as much as she cared about it, or whatever it is she was doing that she was giving to. And she said that is why she has not acted as much or maybe not had as many friends, right? Because she just needs to know now that anything she goes into, any people she engages with, she needs to know she's going to be cared for, respected, helped, supported through that entire creative process. And I kind of love that because I feel like it's really applicable to what you're saying of like, I need to know that if I'm gonna engage with you, that you're gonna be looking out for me as much as like I'm looking out for me. Um or or sounds like a boundary.
Theo:A boundary. What's a good green flag for you?
Sam:See? That's a good one, Theo. You know what's up.
Rhys:Um, well, I mean, that's hard. It can be hard, but I think you hit it, hit on it. If I meet somebody new or I engage with somebody new, um, if I engage with family members and my anxieties within are going up, my cortisol levels are going up, my brain is starting to get anxious, something is off. Um, and I think I've learned that. I used to just think, oh, there's something wrong with me that like all my spidey senses and red flags are going up within, and if I could just kind of get to a level of calm, I could engage with this person well. And that, for example, like in my dating life, there was somebody I was interested in, but all my like spidey senses are going off, and my brain started to get anxious and start, and I was like, wait a minute, no, this isn't there's nothing wrong with me. There's something off about this person that my spidey senses are trying to tell me.
Theo:So, like when you're not peeking is when you feel like it's a good like right now, like I'm feeling calm with y'all.
Rhys:I feel like we don't really know all, you know, I know collect, but I don't feel those anxieties that anxiousness. I'm feeling calm. And I think your nervous system is gonna tell you like parent synthetic nervous system, rest and digest, or sympathetic nervous system, like high alert, woolly mammoths coming.
Colette:Get the heck out of there.
Rhys:So even if I can't like rationally be like, hmm, is this person good or not? Like, what is my body telling me first? I think is really important. Yeah.
Theo:That's a really good one.
Rhys:What's your green flag?
Theo:Um I can laugh. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. If I can if and not like I laugh at everything, I laugh at a lot of things. Um because a lot of things are just funny. Things are there's there's something funny in almost every situation. 10,000 percent. Huh?
Colette:10,000 percent agree.
Theo:But like uh, but if I can like like have a like not just observe things, but like yeah, feel comfortable enough to like enjoy you know like it, yeah.
Rhys:I agree. Laughing is important.
Theo:A GAFA, if you will.
Sam:Well Gaffaw is gaffaw means green. That maybe that's it's like if you go out, Gaffaw is like, oh, this is safe. This is your light city. Who are you? Well, actually, you know, it's funny you say that because I I think um my answer actually would come from me responding to the question. Uh because for for me, I've thought about, you know, how do I approach somebody different views or beliefs than mine is because I I've I agree I I've experienced and agreed, you know, at some level everything you ever everything everybody has shared. But I also realize too that some of it has to do a lot of it has to do with me. So it's even not it's it's about how I approach me in when I approach somebody else. Yeah. And I think uh and of course this has a lot to do with my own spiritual experience and you know w and my How I've grown or hopefully grown in that. But um so the green flag, I guess, my internal green flag before I ever met meet somebody is like, okay, I and of course this might open a whole can of worms, I I just I I am just utterly convinced that everybody is inherently good.
Rhys:Yeah.
Sam:Yeah. And uh and and so now that may be hard to see sometimes, but um I I have just whether I'm even telling myself that and it's not true, uh I'm just uh I'm assuming and I'm believing that everybody is inherently good. And so that's my that's my internal green flag. And then really it's up to the other person to show me that's wrong or not. And more often than not, I don't I they they show me that they are, you know. Um but uh I think the green and see I I I answer this question from such a your your question and this question just from more of an internal standpoint, because I maybe it's because I've in my life I've uh you know experienced a lot of pain and a lot of you know emotional trauma and stuff like that. And so I are from the moment I was a kid, I've always had my guard up. So everybody's bad, everybody at I'm gonna fight everybody. And I knew as I was as I got older and you know, friendships were weird, relationships were weird, romantic or whatever. I was like, okay, I'm gonna do a calculus. The only consistent variable in all of these relationships is me. And so something's off with me, which is a hard thing to admit about yourself. And and that's when the led me to like, okay, well, I'm approaching every every conversation, every relationship as how is this person gonna prove to me that they're against me? And yeah, which is like really no way to live life. I mean, you can, and if it'll keep you alive, you'll be pretty lonely. Yeah. Um, but that that would be the internal green flag for me, is like, okay, this person's good, and even if they keep showing me they're not good, uh, then I'm just I'm gonna find a way to to to keep keep trying to find that in them and connect with that. If that makes any sense. Which is it's hard sometimes because, like you said, what you what your brain tells you is something different than what your you know nervous system tells you sometimes. Because you know, you could come into a situation and you'd be sitting with somebody and you don't know them from nobody, but you're pissed off about another experience you have with somebody else, and you're just dragging that into it.
Rhys:Yeah.
Sam:And so it's a lot of self-examination for me.
Rhys:I think you're saying what you're saying the opposite of what I was saying. Oh, really? And I I kind of like your 'cause I've actually uh this is gonna sound so sad, but I have found myself lately pretty alone, pretty sometimes lonely, although I don't mind being alone. But I've realized that due to past experiences in the past few years, especially just feeling hurt has led me to a place of just being like most people are kind of thinking about themselves, and I have to be careful.
Sam:Yeah.
Rhys:Maybe kind of what we were all saying. But I like maybe you've gone into a more of a healed spot of like, no, I'm going to assume that there's good in everybody and reach and connect for that. Now, maybe be a little protective, but you're starting from a place of assuming good.
Sam:Well, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm healed. I I think I want to be. You're in pursuit of yes, and and I know that uh my my thing is like, well, I know that the way I have been doing it was not effective. And it's almost like I'm gonna do the opposite of what I think is effective. What I what I have thought is effective. Yeah. And sure enough, it's it's it seems to be better. Um it it definitely is there's lots of times, uh, in fact, I I would probably say my you know, my my fiance, she she's the only one that actually gets to hear the gnarly bits of what I actually think.
Colette:Are you talking about trailer park Sam?
Sam:Oh, trailer park Sam, that is correct. Yeah. And uh that yeah, it's a thing. Yeah, it's a thing. And uh and uh and so and actually what's that?
Rhys:I want a trailer park grease. Yeah, I'm in the trailer park grease mode often right now, and I want to be in what is the opposite trailer park Sam?
Sam:Oh, I don't know. Uh Sparkling Water Sand Sub Subdivision, gated subdivision Sam? I don't know. I think it's sparkling water sand. Oh, sparkling water sam. Yeah. There we go. I like this. I like this. Yeah, I don't know.
Colette:It's just um It sounds like what you're describing is kind of like shadow work doing your own, you know, f figuring out like what is inside of you that you have been avoiding or not wanting to deal with, that ugly whatever that ugliness is that you've like disenfranchised in yourself.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:You gotta work on that so that you can what I've known like so that you can deal with that part in other people. Yeah. Because like that stuff that you don't that you're not dealing with is probably what's pissing you off about your engagement with another person. Yes, yes, yes.
Sam:And well, like that'd be the second layer of it to me, is uh and ultimately it still comes back to my internal processing, is I still think one of the another ubiquitous thing for humanity is everybody wants to be secure. Everybody, everybody, everybody. And so, and that helps navigate the conversation for me anyway. And once again, I'll say this from standing from a I'm a straight white dude that you know really uh doesn't experience a lot of you know stuff that say, you know, minorities or women or or you know folks in the LGBTQ community do. So like I'm also approaching this from a very specific framework, but um uh but but I know that w if something if somebody says something that triggers something in me, I was like, okay, well, first of all, I I feel like I need to protect myself, why? And then do that real calculus in my head real quick, but then I'm like, ah well, they probably are just saying that because that makes them feel secure. In some way, that makes them feel secure. And and for that brief moment, I'm like, okay, we're the same people. We're the same people. We we're definitely coming at it from different angles, but we're the same people. And I wish I could say I I nail it all the time, but um that's how I try to do things. That's how I want to do things.
Rhys:That security piece feels like a prerequisite to me. I think um back to the question of like how do you handle people who see the opposite of you if you don't have that security within, and I'm still trying to figure out if that's inherent and or uh circumstantial. Oh my lord. Like we're both. Yeah, we're both. Like right now, I don't have a very secure uh job situation, I don't have a very secure home situation, I'm figuring things out, so it makes it harder to have the capacity to be at that next level of engaging with people in a like let's debate the direction of the country. I'm like, I don't even fucking have I don't know where my next paycheck like I have a paycheck, but like what the you know what I mean? Sorry, I don't know, I wanted to curse on this. Oh, yeah. Anyway, so um I don't know if you want to talk to that a little bit more, like the security piece is important.
Colette:I I I 100% am with you, Reese. I think this question implies uh a level of security because if to the point around like trauma, if you're living in poverty, um, if you are not in a s in a secure, safe home environment, you don't have capacity for these higher level kinds of and I don't mean I don't mean that in like a you're less than kind of way, but like you just don't have as much capacity to do anything. Um when I think about the times of my life whenever I have been really poor. Uh these were not conversations I was capable of having because I was hungry or um worried about paying the rent or like whatever it was, right? Um and so I think that needs to be kind of reckoned with in this conversation.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:That how do you approach someone with a different perspective is like you've got to be in a good place yourself, to Sam's point. Um, but then like in a in a socioeconomic situation, you also have to be like socioeconomically like safe. Um because you Reese, you brought up like the safety in the in the relationship, but there's a more of a like a global safety that needs to be present.
Sam:Um basic food, shelter, yeah, massive hierarchy of needs.
Rhys:Yeah, right. Yeah. Basic needs need to be met first before you can even start worrying about the needs of others, before you can even start self-creating and being creative and doing these kind of higher level intellectual things that grow and develop your soul. Yeah. You know, self-actualization. Yeah. Yeah.
Colette:What was your guffah?
Theo:No, um, there's been several, but like that that reminds me that like because there's a scale, right? It's uh of like how far you can pontificate versus how efficiently you can like provide for yourself, you know. Like, like you're saying, like I don't have I don't have the bandwidth to talk about this shit if you know I haven't had breakfast, lunch, or dinner. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um and also just like the ability to empathize. I think you kind of lose like once you go into self-preservation, you inherently lose the ability to empathize.
Sam:Yeah.
Theo:So yeah. That's and that I mean, but that that goes for like any situation. So like if you're starved for attention.
Sam:Oh, good point.
Theo:You know, you kind of don't see that somebody else is going through a similar thing, or if you're starved for whatever, you know, you're starved. There's a need not met.
Sam:Yeah.
Theo:That's hard.
Colette:And it makes me think, so when I I worked at the VA um at helping veterans get housed and or they were sick in the hospital for, you know, being chronically ill, it would always surprise me whenever they would talk about politics. I'm like, don't you have more important shit to worry about? Um, but it was kind of like a distraction also at the same time, uh, to kind of have these conversations is like I I can, you know, think about these things because it helps me like forget my pel myself and my pain temporarily. Um but it always kind of astonished me when people would hold viewpoints that were in juxtaposition to their current into their present circumstance. Yes. It seemed like everyone wants security, right? But like how to make sense of people having views or voting in a certain way that was like against their own interests was always something that befuddled me then and befudd me now. Um but I did notice like during that time of my life, um, that I was so singularly focused on getting people housed and well that I didn't really care whatever came out of their mouth.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:And that helps a lot. You know, it's like you say whatever nonsense you want to me. Uh and you can even be like flagrantly awful to me, but like you still are living in a you know, under a bridge. So we're gonna work on that, you know.
Sam:Well, I'm yeah, yeah. Well, no, I mean I I do think it has to take a little bit of awareness on your part of going into it. Like I've worked a lot in the unhoused community, and it's like, listen, yeah, we're not having this con we're having nothing remotely like this conversation. Yeah. And you know, you have to be like, well, what we're gonna be talking about, first of all, I'm gonna try to, if I'm gonna help them feel secure and safe, I you know, w I need to figure out what that is for them, if it's food, if it's you know, something warm, if it's you know, just even to listen often is enough to to make somebody feel safe enough to get to the maybe a a next level kind of thing.
Colette:So it all kind of depends on like the goal of the conversation, right? So I'm kind of curious behind this question, like how do you understand how do you approach and uh understanding someone whose views are different than you? I think for me completely depends on what the goal of the conversation is.
Theo:Good point. Can I ask you guys a question?
Colette:Yeah.
Theo:Because like um, I'm coming from uh dad of two small children for the past almost four four years basically. Um, and so my whole view has been internal. It's like, how do I keep the house the house? And you all have described situations where you are like external to an extreme where it's like, how do I find this stranger means to exist? And so those conversations are wildly different. Like the conversation, like um, for instance, the other day I was uh my my older daughter was coming to visit and we were driving in our car and we're at a stoplight, and um a woman, uh, uh a street person was you know like, hey, do you have I was like sorry, I don't. And she walked over and she like looked in the car and looked at me and just like patted me on the arm and kept it moving. And like for three seconds, like, oh, that was so sweet. And then I looked at my daughter like, no, she did reach in the car and touch me, didn't she? And it was and it was just like because it could have been anything, it could have been it didn't have to be a loving gesture, and it was like, oh right, I don't live the kind of existence where a stranger can should be able to reach out and touch me in my car. And uh, and so like what are the conversations like? Because I haven't had a conversation like that in a number of years, where there is somebody who is, I mean, maybe not violently opposed, but definitely opposed in opinion, but like you're both fighting for the same goal. You know, like you're you're trying to say they're literally saved their life, you know, but they they are at least saying some wild shit, you know. Like, what are those conversations like? What I I mean, I'm sure you can't say specifics, but like what are some of the things that you hear that are like common, you know, like where do the lines cross? You know, we know where they're opposed, you know the wild stuff that people will say, but like I'm sure it's gotta be at least some of the time hilarious when like you both maybe say the same thing at the same time, like you know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, um, like what are those conversations like?
Colette:Yeah. I think so a little bit about my work. I uh am an educator of spiritual caregivers, and so we all can talk theology, and I tend to not because I find it useless. Uh, everyone has a different opinion, and it's like, what's the practicality of this conversation? I'm not having it unless it has a practicality to it. That's a bit of my like line. One of my boundaries around this is um, well, and Sam is knows this about me, and like I don't have a lot of use for the how many angels are dancing on a pin kind of bullshit theology questions that people ask. That's an old old example, but um like that sort of stuff. What's the nature of God? Not having that conversation, don't care. Um not that I don't care, I just don't care about the conversation.
Sam:Yeah, yeah. Well, those those conversations, there's no answer.
Colette:There's no answer.
Sam:It's a creative exercise.
Colette:Right. And where for me, uh having been in a place where getting people well is the goal, having worked in healthcare for 18 years, um and on up until three months ago, that it was always about somebody's life or death, right? And when that is the singular focus, nothing else matters. It doesn't matter what that person's opinion is. Reese, you know you've you well, you've been there and you're there now. You don't care what that person's opinion is, what they think of you. Um, like you are just singularly focused on the goal of getting them well or getting them housed or like getting whatever need met. Um and so it all of this becomes a whole lot easier. And in my time, you know, working, I keep thinking about the veterans again, because I worked there for five years and I got to know folks really well. If a VA hospital isn't a hospital, it's more like a rec center. And so you get to know these patients. And in the time that I I got to know this know folks, they thought they knew me because I had heard so much of their lives.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:And they assumed that I agreed with a lot of what they were saying when I agreed with very little. And so I kind of became a bit of a chameleon or a a mirror for people where they just like saw what they want what they needed to see in order to feel safe and secure and connected to me. Um and so yeah, it kind of was like a bit of like a social um uh shapeshifter in a lot of ways, was kind of like how I navigated those conversations. I don't know, it just gets easy because it's not about the conversation or our our different viewpoint. It's about let's get you well, let's get you straightened out, let's investigate the heartbreak that caused your heart attack. Yeah. Right. Real examples that that I've seen. Or um, you know, let's talk about the fact that you had a stroke and now you can't function independently. And what does that mean for your life right now? Um and in that, like having worked in those areas, I know for a fact that being really, really sick doesn't keep you from wanting to live a full life. But getting people to just to agree to that was the main opposing belief that I would have. That, you know, a person's belief, like I'm never I I can't function independently, so I might as well just kill myself or I might as well just die. And me out here thinking, like, no, I've seen people with your same condition live full and and and meaningful lives. You just need to get through this grief and process this loss of independence and and and uh identity, and you can get to get there. That are those were the deep opposing beliefs that I had were more about like what people are capable of.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:You know, um, and the healing and and wholeness that people are capable of having. Those kind of this kind, you know, I think we've been talking about views and beliefs that are external to us, like politics or or what that's not totally external, but you know what I mean. Um whereas my work has been in helping people, uh me believing that they could be well again and then maybe not believing they could ever be well again.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:That's a harder thing to to work with, but it also um the goal is still to save a life, right? Um to to help somebody heal and be whole.
Rhys:Well, and Colette, your points are all about, which I think you know, also you're not far off from doing the work we're doing, too, because it you are choosing to be a father. Colette was also choosing to show up at the VA and help somebody along spiritually. Um I think that is so required. That is to me, love and action, right? To your children might be screaming their heads off and driving you crazy, but at the end of the day, you are choosing to be present with them and show up and sacrifice some of your own sanity for that. Kalab was doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Theo:It's fair morning, it never comes back. Yeah, ever. This is my second set of kids. Yeah, my olders are 25 and 27. Yeah, like this is a literally a new batch. You'd think you'd think you'd be really good at it by now.
Sam:No, I wouldn't. No, you don't. You just you just see I I I keep convincing myself, like right now, it's like I'm 50. I can be I I've screwed up so much with my kids. It I could be so good at being a dad now.
Theo:You know what you'd be good at? You'd be good at n understanding that you're not good at any of it. Yeah. You just have to like give the same amount of effort. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.
Sam:Once you get older. Yeah. Well things are not as important as you thought they were. Yeah, it's like when that's what I always like. Your point. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Singularly. Well, it does go back to what you were what you were saying, Colette, in the saying of like unlearning what you believe. Like even understanding why you believe what you believe. I think that is probably the biggest thing. And and once again, it's so hard when whether it's real or perceived, that you're fighting for your life. Uh, because you know that could be real, and it could also be perceived, you know. And um I just forgot what I was gonna say. I do that all the time.
Rhys:And the the sparkling water bent flat. The sparkling- I told you.
Sam:You get to see it firsthand.
Theo:Well, what happens when what you believe is wrong? See, yeah, I know, right? Like, like how do you like how do you take that on? Because I think that's what a lot of people are having a hard time um not just going through, but like understanding. Like, if you see somebody, and I guess it's like an internal collapse, right? Like you just lost some of your foundation. Um people don't really know how to empathize with that because they probably can't go through it themselves. Yeah, you know, but like what like what are you supposed to do? Yeah, other than get a therapist.
Sam:I I I don't know. But see, but that's that's why therapy is so good because good therapy is not my questions.
Colette:Yeah, that's it. It's not gonna give you many answers.
Sam:No, and and you talking about yourself out loud and sometimes hearing some clarity and like, oh, that's why that is, or sometimes hearing yourself out loud and going, Why the fuck do I think that? That is ridiculous when I say it out loud, or like you can say, I believe this, but if you carry it out to its logical conclusion, it's like that is not where I want to end up. But yeah, but so few of us get there, you know, and for probably for real or perceived notions of security, it's like because it ain't it's hard to it and it is a privileged thing to be able to question your own self and and and be like, okay, well, I mean, I I'm guessing you've Reese, you've been through that, Colette, you've been through that.
Colette:What massive worldviews? Yeah, I mean, about yourself, about yourself identity change, like no, yeah, yeah.
Rhys:I thought I was citizen straight, that came crumbling down. I thought I wanted corporate life and marriage, that came crumbling down, you know, and then I was just thinking, as you were saying, like, why am I doing this to myself? Why am I choosing this? Lack of security.
Sam:Yeah. You choosing to c always question like right.
Rhys:And yeah, I'm yes. And you cut are probably I almost sometimes I feel like maybe I don't have a choice because the the the other choice would be to deny truth. Yeah. And there is just it is true that I am not citizen straight. It is true that I think I'm meant for greater things than project management, for example, even though I love it because it gave me money and security. But I'm like, do I want to live with truth and lack of some security for now? Or do I want to live with non-truth and security?
Colette:Yeah.
Rhys:Um and I think a lot of people can just live without questioning truth, but I just is like it's not me. Sometimes I wish it was me.
Sam:Well, how uncomfortable is that?
Rhys:Constantly uncomfortable.
Sam:Well, no, but I mean to like think about like cognitive dissonance, you know, it's like oh yeah, when you I I think that happens a lot in what I see with folks is and I actually when I see it happen, I try I try to back off because like I've like, oh cognitive dissonance, you mean? Yeah, or like when somebody finally said you know they believe something and then they start getting to a place where they're like they're starting to see or realize or hear themselves and say, oh, because no one wants to feel that. And and um and so I I I I resonate with what you're saying because I don't know I I'm I know there was a point in my life where I definitely didn't want to move from my word, like what I s what I think is the way I think, and that's the right way. And I honestly don't know what what changed that, but you really have you really made me realize like, damn, why would I choose to constantly question everything? That's that's not a very comfortable way to live.
Rhys:It causes discomfort.
Sam:Yeah, great.
Rhys:Or like, why did I choose the career emergency medical response which is inherently and constantly uncomfortable? Constantly. Um and I like the only answer that I can come up with is to be with people in their moments of highest vulnerability and to get to see that, you know, is a beautiful thing. And it's also truth for me, yeah. Um, to kind of be that spiritual person in that way or that presence. But I'm like, but this is true, and I have that peace within because of that, but it's also so constantly uncomfortable.
Colette:Yeah, yeah. Like you you get comfortable being uncomfortable after a time, you know. I know you're still uh relatively new to your EMS journey, Reese, but like again, going back to working in healthcare for that long, um, you get comfortable being uncomfortable. And I'm I I'm glad I left because I think I was too comfortable being uncomfortable. I remember my like first interesting two weeks not working in healthcare, like I was anxious that I wasn't anxious. Yeah, you know, um, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was like the status quo. And um, but yeah, I think whenever you make the decision to kind of um work through any and all cognitive dissonance in yourself and like confront the truth of your circumstance and your situation, you're going to be uncomfortable. You're gonna make the people around you uncomfortable. Um you're really, yeah, signing up your whole life for a sense of of discomfort. But I don't know if comfort is what the human condition is for. That's uh me being a bit of like pessimistic about life.
Rhys:No, I mean to I think that's a good next curious proof. Which one is what's that? Uh what is the nature of life? Is it supposed to be comfortable or uncomfortable?
Sam:Yeah, but you know, you you really uh or was it collect it was both of you that said that. It was uh just that idea of like just having the ability in your life to be able to even do that. And uh because I mean I uh you know, this is whatever, but you know, growing up poor and and seeing my dad with a seventh grade education, you know, didn't learn to read till he was 30, and having the views that he had, and and just seeing like, oh well, of course. Where else would he have landed? You know, and and that I mean realizing that about him probably in my 30s or 40s was kind of like it it really helped me start forgiving a lot of stuff about him. And without also not excusing it, yeah, because like you know, my dad, you know, tended to say some racist things often. And uh and I'm not excusing that, but I can I do acknowledge where it's coming from. Yep. And if I can at least acknowledge that, then I can at least approach him in a way that I can hopefully start steering his views a little bit, or you know, ha having him see another viewpoint. Yeah, yeah.
Rhys:Or choosing how to engage so that is safe for you. Yeah. Um which is also not nothing to have gone through what you went through, by the way. Oh, to qualify that.
Sam:Yeah. I don't know. Like I the I'd tell you what this is a totally different thing. You know, maybe maybe I would love to have this conversation at some point. Just and not even recorded or anything, just about you know, when we the word privilege gets thrown out around a lot. And uh and I and I will say, like, and this is me probably more of a uh whinering kind of aspect of it. You gotta go too? No, um, a whining kind of aspect of just like I feel like I got in my life, uh and maybe it's my experience is unique, I've gotten the word privilege thrown out a lot at me. You know, I'm white, I'm a dude, uh, you know, I'm straight, I'm educated, you know, I'm all of these things. And I'm like, Well, yeah, I lived in a car for six months. Months when I was seven, and you know, I was from a very abusive household. And um, we were I I I'm first generation ever educated in my family. That's all paid for by me. And so I'm like, I don't find myself very privileged. Uh all that that to say, I can also acknowledge that, oh, I I got my start of getting out of the gutter, so to speak, because I was a white straight dude. And older white straight dudes were like, you know what, he's a fuck up. Let me let's help him out. Oh, he's still a fuck up. Let's help him out. And I I I don't say this to say I could that could say fit into that paradigm, but I also don't know if that happens with other people, other subgroups, other, you know, I don't know if that happens like say in the LGBTQ community or or with women or you know, in the African American, you know, I don't know how that works in different cultures and in different standpoint. I just know how it worked in mine, if that makes any sense.
Rhys:Curiosity 'cause buck at each other.
Sam:Oh yeah.
Rhys:Yeah.
Colette:Do we want to ease back in with someone else answering the question? I think at this point Sam and I.
Sam:Yeah, I think we have answered. We probably have enough time for Yeah. One more kind of go around with it. Who wants to do you feel like you you have a response either one of you guys?
Rhys:Oh, to the question itself.
Sam:Yeah, that might be a collette's right. It'd be a good way to Which question? The core question. Well, where do we leave at? What is the purpose of life? The nature of existence. The nature of existence. Yeah. And if you can answer that in like say five minutes, that would be great.
Theo:That'd be really great.
Colette:42. Oh, yes, for the galaxy listeners out there.
Sam:Yes, yes. That is the answer to the life universe and everything. Um wait, is that actually the question? No, no. Heavens no. No. I mean, well, that is the answer, 42. It's up to us to build a supercomputer to figure out. But uh no, how do you approach, you know, uh understanding someone who's user beliefs or later on?
Theo:That we already haven't covered, or maybe I think I did say I did it, I do it poorly.
Sam:Yeah.
Theo:No, um, I I I you know, like in a have to situation, um yeah, commonality and boundaries. You know what what are we talking about? Like what is the important thing? Why are we here together? Why do we have to do this? Because it's usually a have to do it. Um even if the have to is your own, and then where do I draw the line? Like this conversation, this relationship doesn't go to this area. Um yeah, that's and that's and I have a tendency to be rigid, and so I will I will like like harden fast, like that is what it is. Like um but like your boundaries aren't your bound boundaries don't have boundaries have foundations and those foundations are fluid. Because like if you know somebody's intentions are not against you, because like my whole thing is and I think I think we can probably relate, like it's are you for me or are you against me? You know, like do you have my best interest in heart or are you trying to hurt me? And so like if I know you're not trying to hurt me, then you have more flexibility in my boundaries. And if I know you're absolutely trying to hurt me, yeah, and that that's where like the part of me that I would like to have more grace in comes about. Because then it's like the boundary is when the conversation changes to a fight.
Sam:I often I often discover that about four sentences too late.
Colette:Yeah. Yeah. Oh shit, I think we're in a fight. We've done been in a fight, and I didn't realize until now.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:We back cut a lot of this fight.
Sam:And I started it.
Theo:Yeah. I that's I try not to start fights. That is like that's the one that's like that, that's like the core rule for me. Don't start fights because um I learned early. I'm I'm not good at starting fights. I um because you if you're gonna start a fight, you should probably start a fight with the intention of winning.
Colette:Yeah, you're not wrong.
Theo:I've learned like I'm I'm not good at verbal fights anyway, because again, I don't like to have my feelings hurt. Um, and so I'm either gonna be too hurtful or I'm just gonna open up myself to be hurt way more than I am. Interesting. Um, yeah. Because like my abuse style was verbal and emotional. You mean how you how you how I was abused, yeah. You know, people have their attachments to others have my abuse style. Like the secondary was the physical, but like the verbal and like the emotional is what really got me. And so like I I avoid it. And so um when it got to a verbal confrontation, I would cow and I had to learn how to not do that. Um I had to learn how to not cower in a lot of ways. Uh ironically, um I was like six foot tall, 12 years old, and like I got picked on because I was bigger than everybody, and that went into high school, and so it was it was funny, like so the juxtaposition was people picked on me, people like I was the the butt of the whatever, but they couldn't beat me up, yeah. Right, and so that's kind of how I go into life. Like, you can't really hurt me, so like whatever. Um, but I would like to have more fun in my interactions, and so I chose to have different interactions with different people, and if you were on the outside of that sphere, then the way I interacted with you is different, with the understanding that at some point it might get into a fight and I don't verbal fight well. So it's like, all right, if I'm gonna have this conversation, then I have to understand that it might get physical, and am I willing to do that? And if I'm not willing to do that, then I because I don't like fight, like I'm a fighter. I was a fighter since I was a child in rings with refs and judges. Okay. I I love that setup. That's a beautiful setup because it's more an expression than it's more of an expression of artistry than an expression of anger.
Sam:Yeah.
Theo:I don't like expressions of anger because you always say something or do something regretful, like always 100% of the time. Um and I don't actually want to hurt anybody. Yeah, I just don't want to be hurt either. And so, like I come in with a higher guard than I realize. But like full understanding of the spectrum of it. Yeah. And the thing I want to change is I want to come in with I wanna be confident enough in myself and my ability to come in with no guard and be okay with the outcome.
Sam:How do you feel like you're you're doing with that?
Theo:Better better than I would have imagined. Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's good. A lot of therapy.
Sam:Well yeah.
Theo:But like also like the boundaries that I needed to set, I set. Like, um the I kind of don't have family anymore. And that's an advantage, unfortunately. Like the the family members that I was close with, they're they've passed, but like I made my peace because I got good at grief early. I just had an understanding of like this is gonna happen to everybody. Um, and the people that I knew that I was never gonna come to the terms that I needed to come to with, I I don't interact with them. But it's not out of like anger or loathing, it's just like if I'm gonna have the kind of life that I want to have, then I can't have a relationship with you. Yeah, I love you, and if you need me, like absolutely need me, I will be there. Um but that's it.
Sam:And then do you think that's it for all time, or is it it until you get that cream?
Theo:Can't tell the future you I can't tell the future. Like, because I don't want it to be it. That's not a choice that I'd like to make, it's a choice I have to make. You know, so I would love to have all the green flags waved, and like that would be the the joy. Then my life gets fuller. Yeah. Um, because that's the other thing. Like, when somebody crosses the boundary, you've lost a person.
Colette:Yeah. You know, like you're signing yourself up for grief. Yeah. When you're like have to say no to having a relationship with somebody.
Theo:And a lot of times, like the the righteousness of your choice will mask the the grief of losing that person. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, like you made the right choice. You made the right choice. You made the right choice, and they're gone.
Colette:Yeah. And you still gotta cry about it. You still gotta grieve about it.
Theo:I mean, if you get to the point of crying about it, some people won't let themselves cry about it.
Sam:They'll stay angry.
Theo:You know, yeah, stay angry.
Sam:It's safer to be angry.
Theo:I think and anger is a transitional emotion. Oh, for sure. Like it gets you from one place, it gets you from uh it definitely gets you from hurt to hatred. You know.
Rhys:Um sometimes it gets you from yeah, yeah, hurt to a better place of now I can handle the hurt. In a better case scenario, yeah. Not like bleeding out emotionally.
Theo:But it's definitely a bridge.
Sam:Yeah, and it's definitely a bridge, yeah.
Rhys:It's a good thing sometimes too.
Sam:Well, I mean, I but I think it takes some uh I don't want to say maturity is not the right word, you know, some wisdom to be able to get to that spot. Because I think uh just from my perspective, anger has been the pro predominant emotion in my life, it's always been the first emotion, but I also realized oh, that was just the first one. But there's several underneath that. This is the trans the transitory emotion, it's useful to get me from one point to another, yeah. But I didn't realize that till way later in life.
Theo:Yeah. That's the hard part, man. Like, if there were children doing this kind of emotional work, it's not even possible. They're not fully formed humans, but like that's just what it is, you know. Like, cause everybody's gonna hurt you.
Sam:Yep.
Theo:Like every single person, if you keep them in your life long enough, will hurt you. Sometimes not being in your life will hurt you. Um and it's just like it's kind of like what you were saying before, like, is it worth it? You know, is this a person when you hurt me, how will we how will we deal with it?
Colette:Yeah.
Theo:When I hurt you, how will we deal with it?
Colette:Yeah.
Sam:But see, and that takes a a certain level of well, security, but a certain bit of a relationship to be able to have that kind of conversation. Foresight. For sure. Yeah. And I don't think we all approach I think we do that with romantic relationships a lot.
Theo:I think that's kind of the have you ever just like done that though? Just like met somebody like I give you that already. What do you mean? Like, um so yes, it takes a bit of relationship to ask those. I've met people, and not just romantic people, but people that I've known that like I don't have to have this guard. I didn't know I don't know how. Yeah, uh you know, but it's just like, oh no, we're the same.
Sam:You're good.
Theo:Yeah, yeah. We're we're the same. And like the language is different, the the interactions are different, like even the misunderstandings are different. You know? I got a friend, uh, when we're together, we're like a pack of dogs. Yeah. You know, it's like you ever see dogs that get together and it's like, oh, we're dogs, we do dog stuff. Yeah, just go off and do dog stuff, and that's just what it has always been that way. You know, the first conversation basically was like, We're dogs, right? And it was like it was the like, you know. That's good.
Rhys:I I I have dog friends. Yeah. Y'all seem like dog friends potentially. We'll see. Oh, that's good. Maybe there's some cats and lizards. We don't know yet. Oh, bear.
Sam:Yeah.
Rhys:See, that's my guard itself talking. Yeah. But so for example, I work in EMS and uh one of the things I wasn't ready for, I started working in only like in the past nine months. One of the things I wasn't ready for was every time I get on an ambulance right now, I'm with a different person. Oh. A different partner.
Colette:Oh, strange. Interesting.
Rhys:And this is a relationship that you are dependent on. When you are out in the streets and it's you and one or two other people, and your safety is on the line constantly, you have to be able to quickly build rapport with that person.
Sam:How do you do that?
Rhys:The chameleon thing, right? Like, and but what my my the reason I bring this up is because I think to quickly engage with someone you don't know, that's comes back to having that security within knowing which battles you're going to fight and choosing which ones to fight. Sometimes they're not worth it when there is a disagreement. And also just like being okay with the discomfort that some people are gonna like you, some people are not, but are you remaining respectful? Are you remaining professional? Um also like I might not want to know your political views, for example. Yeah, that could actually really throw me for the whole day, and like let's not even cross that line. Yeah. Is that are you I'm sorry, are you using the pronouns correctly? Sure. And am I respecting you also in return? Yes. Um, and then just that security within. I think I like grew up mostly a people pleaser, and one of the things that set me free the most was just like uh some quote was like, you're not always gonna be everybody's cup of tea. Like there's just gonna be people who don't like you. And the more you are okay, okay with that, because you're like, oh, I like myself, so then the people who like me will find me, then um the the easier I think it becomes. Um luckily I've within my EMS journey so far had like mostly awesome partners. Um but I think that has been one of the most challenging things, especially as a bit of an introvert extrovert, like I um have become more introverted the more long I've gone in life just due to experiences. And um yeah, that's that's not easy.
Sam:Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I was well, that's what I was curious about was like because man, I just never realized that. That because you I the first thing that came to my mind was cops. It's like you got partners. At least I I that's at the top of what TV says. But um I thought that's would be just as equally as important in an EMS crew.
Rhys:Yeah, and right now I'm just in a phase of training, so I'm just on a different ambulance every day.
Sam:Do they do they eventually go to that?
Rhys:Eventually. Okay. Yeah, eventually.
Sam:So eventually that is the steady state.
Rhys:It should be.
Sam:Okay.
Rhys:But with but the amount of lack of people that they're able to run to these roles and capacity, it it could just change a lot. Who knows?
Sam:So do you like have a um like a script in your head? Not script's not the right word, but like certain or is there or is there just like in the in the milieu of that of of everybody just coming in from not is there some kind of agreed upon like format that you guys quickly get to know each other? No. Really?
Colette:Yeah.
Rhys:My first thing is if I'm on a truck with somebody brand new and they don't know who I am and they see me and they're like, what? Yeah. Is hi, I immediately proactively go up to them. Hi, my name's Reese, my pronouns are he they just to get that out of the way, quick and easy. Um, and I'm here to like participate and be part of the team and carry my weight, basically. So I could go in and I'll set my own standard. Um, but back to the safety when you're driving 70 miles an hour on the I-10, then you're getting out and you're helping somebody, cars are rushing by, like, you have to be able to engage with that person across perspective. So I can't, I'm I'm sorry, I was bouncing and building off your point, but um Oh yeah, you were asking, like, have you ever quickly had rapport with someone where you didn't feel like you had to set boundaries? And I would say within my work, for example, like yes. But it does take a bit of effort as well.
Colette:Yeah, there was Theo, you were talking and y'all are both kind of talking about this that you said you determine if somebody's gonna be in your life based off if if they're headed in the same direction as you. Did I hear that right?
Theo:Or that they're going to s oh uh that they're gonna be like the same as part of your own goals. Like um, basically, if we if we have the same same ideals, you know, like maybe not the same direction because that's a really hard thing to determine, but like um same principles, same values. Yeah, yeah, like yeah, similar animals. Yeah, like bears get along with dogs, you know, copy bars get along with everything, you know, like I I believe I do b kind of believe in like I don't know the word for it, but you know, everybody has an animal that they resonate with. And like the truer you are to that animal, the easier it is to tell compatibility. Right. You know, like I am a bear. Like that is I've from birth. I remember I was talking on the phone with my aunt, and uh, she didn't know I could hear her. She was like talking to somebody like and when he was born, he's like a little bear cub. Shut up.
Rhys:Um and what what characteristics of bear do you relate to? What does that mean?
Theo:Um so like Worm, Fuzzy, cuddly, no, like um ferocious lump like lumbering, like the like the um even the even like the the hibernation portion, like maybe not at such a uh grand scale where it's for a season, but like there are some times when I have to like I don't have a choice. I'm going to lose consciousness and I'm going to see you in like a day or so. Oh you know like there have been a couple of times when my wife, like, hey, I might or I'll I'll I've I've gotten to a point where I can make it till the kids are in bed, and then it's like I'll see you later. And I might sleep for like 10 or 12. It used to be like 16. I could get a high 16 and um a hot sixteen. Okay. That's the other thing. I I especially with a oh man, having a CPAP. I can like completely engulf myself in in just rubbery, like blankets and every pillow. Like I want to sweat when I'm asleep. Well, interesting.
Sam:I want to talk about that. This is what I'm talking about. You learned some stuff about people in these conversations. I feel like I'm healing.
Theo:I feel like I feel like I'm regenerating. I feel like I'm just like stuff is coming out and like stuff is growing.
Colette:Yeah.
Sam:You know, I stuff is coming out and you're making room for other stuff.
Theo:Yeah, yeah. It and it feels good.
Colette:What but I I to connect, you said ideals. Whenever I've worked in healthcare teams and and I've been the new one on the block, that I definitely see my peers and colleagues assessing um how seriously I take my role, right? And like how invested. And I imagine that's part of with the EMS stuff. But also what you're saying, Theo, is like I can I can have pretty much any conversation with a person um who has the same um sense of urgency about it, whatever the discussion is, right? Uh, even if we are in opposition to each other, do we at least care the same amount? Like if somebody doesn't care about a topic and they're and they're arguing me, I'm not having that conversation with them. Um yeah, I have a friend who is like play likes playing the devil's advocate. And I'm like, I know you're not you don't believe the nonsense you're spewing, so I'm not having this conversation with you. Like you're just wanting to debate for the sake of debate. Uh no, thank you. But if you want to have a real skin in the game conversation, I'm willing to have that. Yeah. Yeah.
Rhys:I've also learned to jump, I've been wanting to share a story super quick. Like back in my previous life in corporate, when I first um decided I was going to change my name and pronouns in the wordplace. People had known me for like 10 years as totally different name and pronouns. Um I did have somebody come up to me and they their child had recently come out as gay, and religiously they were not okay with that. And for better or worse, and I kind of learned my lesson after this, I was like, hey, my pronouns are, my name is, and like a meeting. Because then you were gonna find out about it anyway. And I was like, if y'all have any questions, like feel free, and that was my mistake was to open myself up for questions. Yeah, so he comes up to me after he's like, Do you mind like taking a walk? Like, I have some questions for you about it. And I learned he was trying to process the anger he felt that his son was coming out as gay with me. And he ended up saying, like, you know, oh, trans, that thing. Well, I just I don't agree with that. Um and I'm mourning the fact that my child is gay. I'm like, okay, so now I'm hurt. And why did I do that to myself? Too. But also, three, it was just like that's that was a lesson in learning where to just not even open yourself up and engage, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Which is a bit back to my point, like when I'm on an ambulance, like I also fucking I don't care what your political views are. Like, I really I just like don't even care. Yeah, that and we have a good 12 hours together, is what I care about.
Colette:Yeah, you take saving lives as seriously as I do. That's all I care about. I think I would care if the person was experiencing like extreme compassion fatigue. I wouldn't necessarily want to be in the same EM in the ambulance.
Rhys:And it's like yeah, and you expect somebody to perform at the level of care that you care about, but it also just like it comes all of everything we're talking about. I feel like, and you started it with this collette, like comes down to persist person, place, time, circumstance. Um, do I do it? Do I not? Do I have the energy for this today? Do I not? Which most of the time I do not. Uh, you know, it's just and where to pick your fights and battles. Um, but also curiosity to bring it all back together, like, just is super important because that is a very non-defensive or offensive way. If you are going to engage, to engage.
Sam:Oh, I I agree. In fact, that that's what I try to do when I do get triggered. You know, someone says something, uh, and I'm like, oh, you know, like they are. And you know, see, I'm the opposite of you, Theo. I love to fight. And and and uh like I love confrontation. Uh and so no, but I realize it took me a lot of work to go like, oh, nobody else is like that. Like nobody else is like that. But like when you're here in a room. Yeah, nobody likes confrontation. And so what I've tried to do is when I feel that I'll try to ask a question. Because, you know, and even if it's just to get them talking more, so I can just like I'll be honest, sometimes not listen, I'll be like, calm the fuck down, man. Calm the fuck. You know, it's just like yeah, yeah. You know, just to you know give me some space. But um, yeah, I I really think I mean if we're gonna wrap it up or if not, but like I I really think the curiosity, you have to come and be curious about yourself. Yeah. Because that's what I heard you say, is you know, really you know, when you're just bearing all the situational stuff around you, but it really does come down to like what your barometer is inside. Because you know, like some days, you know, you're gonna wake up and you're gonna feel great about yourself and your worldview and your existence and all of these things, and you can be wide open about you can come with you know with the most you know different person and you're probably gonna be okay. But you know, if you don't, yeah, you know, if you wake up on the negative side or in the medium, you know, side, yeah, and and it's okay to be be good with yours be honest with yourself and go, you know what, I'm just not me today. You know, it's like I was curious about myself, it's not me today, and uh I'll I'll approach the world accordingly as best I can anyway. Yeah. Which I think is I think that's the the healthiest stance you can really take in in being in the world is being honest with yourself about what you can do that given day, or even that given hour, you know, uh how our energy changes throughout the day. Yeah, yeah.
Theo:Things tend to be cyclical, you know, like you shouldn't always have the bandwidth to engage in that way. No, you gotta process that information and like learn how to use it.
Sam:Yeah. Well, I mean, you gotta go you gotta go into den and sweat it out. You know? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, we all need to do that in our own way. Yeah. Have a time to process and yeah, because like it's hard to learn on the fly.
Colette:Yeah. I like make space for the other person's difference, is what I'm hearing. Like the sweating it out. You're talking about you're making space. I think what we're yeah, we need to like energetically have space for other people's difference. If we're too guarded or our our hackles are up, um, or if we're gonna really activate a space where we're just like always gonna be triggered by whatever anyone says. We're not gonna be in that in that space. I and I don't just to do a plug about like Curious Crew in person that happens monthly. I'm always so uh astonished by how many like new people come to that and they're just open. And you ask them, like, why are you here? And they're like, I don't know, it just seemed like an interesting idea, and I wanted to meet new people, and I don't really care if they are the same as me. Um before doing Curious Crew, it was like, yeah, I didn't know if it would work. I thought maybe we would collect a lot of people with a lot of similarity, just naturally, that's what usually happens in groups, and people kind of, you know, clump together in their similarity. And seeing people being willing to like stretch, yeah, especially in this time and day, is just like quite astonishing. Um, and what I personally love about the the in-person group in New Orleans.
Sam:Well, I mean, I've been surprised about how I mean, I really expected for there to be more conflict.
Colette:Yeah, 10 seconds.
Sam:Yeah, I really that I was gonna be like, well, I'm I'm never gonna really get to enjoy this because I'm gonna be the police, you know, to be like, no, we're not talking about you had any of us.
Colette:Yeah.
Sam:Yeah.
Rhys:How long have y'all been doing it for?
Sam:A year, over a year. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, and it's been fun, it's been really interesting to watch people grow, uh, along with you, you know. And of course, it I've I've I have seen if you want to say anything negative, is I've seen people who have come and you know, I don't know how they perceived it, but they I think they say, Oh, well, this is not for me. This is not the safe place for me. And um and that always that that makes me sad, you know, in a way, because I'm like, oh, if if if there was any place for you, this is it. Uh, but um for me, like even listening, just trying to slowly process this whole thing, is it really does a lot of this does have to come to an internal place for you.
Colette:Yeah, safety is there's like there's the we I I we talk a lot about safety in my line of work. Yeah, is that I can make a space structurally and actually objectively safe, but I can't make anyone feel safe in that.
Sam:That's all them.
Colette:And so we instead in in my world we talk about like brave spaces, a space where you feel like you can be brave to like take a risk, which is I think what you were talking about, like you have to be. Willing to be vulnerable and take a risk to like be open to an oppos opposing view.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:Um but yeah, with with safety is it and what I've learned in therapy is like say even just the word safety is triggering.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:Uh for some people, because the like notion of it is so uh like obscure and an an impossibility in their life that they can't possibly imagine their body can't even imagine being in that space. It's just activating and triggering.
Sam:But they've been in a safe place or an open place or uh, you know.
Colette:And they've been harmed.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:Yeah. The the place that was supposed to be safe. So yeah, I I I think uh, you know, it's it's information and I hope that the people who have felt that way are able to uh, you know, find a place where they can learn to be safe again.
Sam:Yeah.
Colette:I think that's probably the work that we all need to do. It's like, how do we learn how to be safe? Yeah in the world and with other people so that we can be open and curious and engage with people who are different than us.
Sam:So we've figured that out already, right? Yeah. Yeah, we've already figured that out. We can publish the book, make a million dollars. Who's gonna run for president though? Not what do you want Be OK? I don't think anybody wants that gig right now. No what? Come on.
Theo:No, everybody wants somebody else in that gig right now, but nobody wants that gig right now.
Colette:No.
Theo:Um I'd like to be I'd like to be a cult leader.
Colette:Okay. Yeah, I've I've thought that if there's any gig in this life um that I could take up quite easily, it would be a cult leader.
Sam:See, I don't know. I I I have this whole problem with that, is like they always end up dead. And so I'm like, I I don't know.
Colette:I'm dying anyways.
Sam:Who well I know, but I would not like to hurry hurry up and rush that. There's plenty of cults that are thriving. Oh yeah. Be careful yeah, talk about it.
Colette:It's just the ones that are in the news that end up with a dead cult leader.
Sam:I guess that's fair. That's fair. We only get that.
Colette:We all we only get the we only get the scandals.
Theo:If you keep a low profile, if you're not trying to change the world, just neighborhood, you can have a good cult.
Colette:Yeah. Uh Theo Theo for cult leader.
Theo:Yeah, I'll take that one over president any day.
Colette:What's your what's your tagline? What's your byline?
Theo:Oh, no clue.
Sam:No clue. No clue. No clue whatsoever. Oh, no, no, no. It's like stay under the radar. Yeah, stay under the radar. Fly low, my fly low, sleep deep.
Colette:The den. That's what you're called to call.
Sam:Oh, this is okay. Hold on. This is getting to be this is getting fleshed out. Yeah. This is getting fleshed out. Well, this wow, this uh I know that's an interesting way to end things, but but it's also, I think, very appropriate. Very appropriate. But uh uh so this um obviously we could talk about this forever, but this was uh a great conversation, I think uh everyone for their perspective. And um, I know I I'm gonna be chewing on this for a while, and I hope everybody who's listening uh found at least one thing, probably several things that's as fascinating and hopefully mostly connecting. That's what I really want uh out of this is that somehow in all this conversation we can feel connected. Um so if there's something uh or someone in this conversation uh that made you curious uh out there in the in the world, we want uh we want to include you in this conversation and uh ways to do that. Uh there'll be links uh in the show notes for that um if you um want to reach out.
Colette:And if you want to join us in person, uh we'd love to see you and meet you at one of our monthly gatherings. Uh there's actually two. There's the Meet the Crew, which is a great way just to come, and uh you'll you'll probably see Sam and I and uh and Sam's fiance, Morgan, along with a lot of our regulars, um, just to kind of dip your toe in. Uh and if you want to participate in the full conversation, you can find us all that information in the notes below where you can find the dates and details where we meet in RSVP for that. Finally, if you've got any questions or are curious about starting your own curious crew in your area, shoot us an email. Uh you'll find that in the notes below as well. And important to note, y'all are in New Orleans, right?
Sam:Yeah, we're all in New Orleans. In New Orleans, currently. Currently.
Colette:Currently, but there's a lot of conversations about folks in other areas that are wanting to start around.
Sam:Yeah, yeah, it's very encouraging. Well, thank you, everybody, uh, for letting your curiosity get the better of you today. Uh, we'll be back around the table soon uh with another curious question. But until then, stay curious.
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