Relationship Realities: Learning the Hard Way

What makes a relationship healthy...romantic, family, friendship, all of it? And why do so many of us end up learning the most important parts the hard way?

In this episode, Sam and Colette are joined by Nic and Craig for a curious conversation that starts with a surprisingly deep warm-up (“one word that describes how you recharge”) and then dives into the real stuff: giving and receiving, speaking your needs, the vulnerability of being seen, and how our family-of-origin habits follow us into grown-up relationships like uninvited guests.

Along the way, we talk about hyper-independence (and why it’s not always the flex we think it is), why “communication” is more than just talking, how change feels weird before it feels right, and why healthy relationships require a willingness to risk discomfort...and even pain...if we want real connection. There’s also some honest reflection on anger, boundaries, and what to do when someone’s “real self” includes a side you don’t know how to hold.

As always, we follow The Curious Code: respect beats being right, listen up, keep an open mind, respond with curiosity, and make this a safe space for everyone—every time.

Pull up a chair. This one’s tender, funny, and very human.

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Until then, Stay Curious!

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & The Curious Code
• 1:35 Quickie Question: How We Recharge
• 5:30 Naps, Rest Vs Restful, And Phones
• 10:40 Generation Gaps And Mental Health Days
• 16:30 Racing Thoughts, Sleep, And Calm Tools
• 22:30 Transitions, Work From Home, And Rituals
• 26:00 Main Question: Defining Healthy Relationships
• 33:30 Listening, Mutuality, And Friendship As Foundation
• 41:00 Boundaries, Needs, And Speaking Up
• 48:30 Change, Identity, And Flexibility In Love
• 55:00 Discomfort, Practice, And The Arms Exercise
• 1:01:30 Social Media, Proximity, And Real Friends
• 1:08:00 Anger, Respect, And Repair
• 1:15:00 Closing Thanks & How To Join The Crew

Transcript

Sam: 0:06

Do you ever wish for a place where you can ask real questions without a fight? Do you ever want to sit with people who see the world differently than you and still feel connected? Do you ever crave a circle that listens more than it lectures and leaves you a little more human than when you arrived? If this is you, welcome to the Curious Crew Podcast. One honest question with many voices and with real connection. It's where we listen first and we practice curiosity with kindness and then become curious friends together. So without further ado, let's get curious. Welcome to the Curious Crew podcast, where we believe curiosity leads to connection. My name is Sam, and that would make you you, and I'm one of your curious co-hosts today. Uh each episode we pose one curious question voted on by the Curious Crew to our panel of curious people, and we get curious about their thoughts and perspectives and grow into curious friends together.

Colette: 1:16

And I'm Colette, my pronouns are they and them. I am the co-host of Curious Crew Podcast with Sam. Like we do every month, we're gonna get this thing started with uh our curious quickie. If our guests could share their name and their answer to that question, uh to get us warmed up and ready to go. So that question is what's one word that describes how you recharge?

Sam: 1:40

Ooh. Serious question for once, and not like what's your favorite uh emoticon.

Colette: 1:46

You're the one who wrote this script, so you only have yourself to blame.

Sam: 1:48

I know. I'm trying, I'm I'm tired of being like, you're just a comedian, and I'm like, I'm not a very funny one, so I try to be serious, you know. Gotcha, gotcha. I'll go first. My name is everybody knows me, I'm Sam. But uh I I that'd say it's easy. Um recharge for me is always a nap. I'm a big nap. I'm a big napper. If I'm grumpy, nap. If I'm hurting, nap. If I am out of creativity, nap. And then I wake up and I'm usually feeling better. And I actually have found out you can take 30-minute naps, there's 45-minute naps, and then there's a whole sleep cycle, it's a whole thing.

Colette: 2:23

You didn't know about sleep before now?

Sam: 2:25

Uh, you know, you listen. We're friends, and you know.

Colette: 2:31

No, I know.

Nic: 2:32

You know about me. I was here for the end of the friendship.

Colette: 2:34

Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 2:36

No, I I have a tendency to push myself a little too hard, too. Yeah, I uh the some, you know, like uh uh vapid discovery like sleeping. You guys already know since you're born, but it was uh new to me. So that's what I do to recharge.

Nic: 2:51

Uh so I'm Nick. He, him pronouns, and um I thought about this one for a minute and I wanted to, it said a one-word answer. Yeah. My one word that describes how I recharge is poorly. Ah because I tell folks often that I've spent a lot of time over the years getting good at trying to do things that prevent the need to recharge. Or that don't drain me as much, but the actual act of recharging can often turn into just what I call space cadetting.

Sam: 3:18

And now I want to talk to you after this is over. This is fat. That's it. Yeah. So tell me about your mother.

Colette: 3:25

No, just don't it's really just a therapy podcast wrapped up in curiosity.

Sam: 3:30

Yeah, that's right. That's interesting. So do you have any like are you discovering anything at all?

Nic: 3:36

Yeah, well, and I've also sort of learned to appreciate um one thing I've learned in recent years is the idea behind um getting rest versus doing something restful. So, for instance, a lot of those sort of like you know, mini-games on your phone, like Candy Crush, things like that, they talk about how those are they require attention but not effort. Yeah. So they can be a way for your brain to kind of recharge in the background. So that's become a lot of little things like that that I can sort of fidget with, but don't really take brain power can be useful to recharge.

Sam: 4:05

Let me guess, you're like a kinetic person, probably ADHD, something like that. Why do you think I'm a physical therapist? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the world's built, not built for people like us. Yeah, I get it.

Craig: 4:19

Oh, nine turn?

Sam: 4:20

Yeah. Why not? Let's see what Craig does to recharge.

Craig: 4:24

Well, my name is Craig. Um, I don't have anything specific that I can think of that I recharge. I just just step back and take a break.

Sam: 4:34

Yeah.

Craig: 4:35

Gotta reorient myself. Um sometimes I might take a walk. You know, getting outside, getting in nature might recharge me a bit. But uh yeah, I don't know, especially not with one word. I'm not sure how I would answer that.

Sam: 4:49

So you have multiple forms of recharging.

Craig: 4:52

Yeah, I mean I never really thought of it in those terms, but yeah, I guess just stopping whatever I'm doing and taking a break and and kind of getting a little perspective. I think a nap's a good idea, like you say.

Sam: 5:06

Naps are wonderful.

Craig: 5:08

I didn't know you could do 45 minutes or an hour. I thought you were mandated to do one or the other.

Sam: 5:13

Well, you know, I like to live loosely in life. I like to violate the laws of nature.

Nic: 5:18

So I would argue you're underachieving because I my my wife is two-hour nap minimum. Really?

Colette: 5:23

What? That's just going to bed. Isn't that like bedtime? Yeah, well.

Craig: 5:29

Now, could you do like a 48-minute nap? Or what are the incremental?

Sam: 5:36

You do what you gotta do with your brain on. You know, well, no, it was just I didn't know the rules. Yeah. Well, you know, none of that's exact, but it's all about different sleep in order to be your REM cycle, wasn't it?

Nic: 5:48

Yeah. Guys, what happened to Craig? He took a 49-minute nap.

Sam: 5:51

Yeah, it's one night. He never woke up. Never woke up the same. It's a good question, Matthew. Oh right, Colette.

Colette: 6:01

And for me, I my the word I would use to describe my recharge is slowly. Oh I need a lot of time to usually to myself to recharge. And uh something that's been happening recently. I've uh been doing like a lot of racing thoughts. And so when I'm trying to recharge, I'm usually just trying to like slow my thoughts down. I've taken up crochet again, and like I can I can tell how fast my thoughts are going by how fast my book is going.

Sam: 6:33

Oh.

Colette: 6:34

And uh I was dealing with that this week where I was like, I was trying to slow down and I couldn't, and I was like, I just I want to be slow and I can't get to I can't slow down.

Nic: 6:43

So was that challenging for you? Because like I I know a lot of folks they expect to like get a quick recharge. So did you did you kind of have to get to a point where you were like okay with recharging slowly versus like Yeah.

Colette: 6:55

Yeah. Um, for sure. It was a hard, like something that my rheumatologist tells me because I complain about sleeping too much, which is like the opposite of the problem she normally gets. Um, she's like, I think you're just gonna have to come to peace and suck it up with the fact that you need 10 hours of sleep sometimes. Um sometimes and I'm like, well, right now it's at like 12. And she's like, Yeah, you're just gonna have to suck it up. Your body needs rest.

Sam: 7:22

Yeah, exactly.

Colette: 7:22

Well, I have our napping um really throws me off. Like, if I wake up in the wrong time of day, uh and we're in the sun, yeah, I get I get feel nauseous and dizzy, and I have more vertigo symptoms when I nap. So I don't know. Uh I I don't find it particularly like rechargey. Yeah. I will go have a lay down though. And people think that I'm sleeping. I'm just no, I'm just literally just laying down.

Sam: 7:50

Yeah. So yeah, no. I well, it's it's a I I'll be honest with my napping thing. It's a bit of a gamble. You know, it's it'll definitely um do a little bit of a reset, you know, like maybe lower the anxiety levels or you know, quiet the thoughts a little bit. But yeah, but then it's almost the opposite problem because if I slow the train down too much, and then the train yeah, it's like uh screw it, you know, we'll just leave it where it's at until tomorrow.

Colette: 8:18

Yeah.

Sam: 8:19

Kind of thing.

Colette: 8:20

Yeah. I would I well I was remembering this weekend that I used to only get like one day off a month. And now I'm like, that's why I'm that's why I have a chronic illness. It's because I never rested before. And so like if I want to be well, my body is just like if you're not gonna get down, I'm gonna put you down. Is kind of uh how I feel like I have a relationship with my body at this point.

Nic: 8:42

I hear you. So I w I wonder same for you. So I'm like, I feel like that was true for me, is like as you learn to adult, like in school, you know, they don't teach you finance, like taxes, things like that, but also like you don't get taught how to recharge. So I like I feel like that's something where it's you you sort of have to like be okay with figuring out how to recharge like the right way for you, not whatever 25 other people tell you to well not to to hijack the thing, but like not even taught how to recharge, but you're not incentivized to recharge. You're not you're not it's it's almost like if you do that, then you're lazy.

Colette: 9:20

Yep.

Sam: 9:21

And see, that's where yo yeah, hustle culture. And so it's just like when you say, like, oh yeah, you know, I took Friday off because like I uh I just wasn't feeling it and I needed to relax. I've gotten in trouble. I I remember one time I did that. I told um after my boss told me, Now, if you need to take care of yourself, take care of yourself, right? And then so, like, okay, well, I'm gonna go take care of myself. And then the next day, well, the next day after I missed an event, no, you're never. I didn't mean then. And it's like, well, yeah, well, I'm sorry I'm wrong. It's like, oh, today I need to recharge. Oh, sorry, you know, you can't map it out, anyways. That's therapy stuff.

Craig: 9:56

I think it's I think that's a generational thing I noticed because I was uh uh speaking of relationships, I had a relationship with a a woman who was significantly younger, and I picked up on a lot of generational things that she saw the world differently. And one of those was the very thing you're mentioning that um she assumed, and I think this is a common attitude for people who are younger than us, um, that you should be able to recharge at will, that you should be able to like she was upset she had uh tried to take a day off at work, and they asked for a reason why why are you not coming into work today? She's I just uh I don't feel like coming into work. I I need to not work today. It's for my own mental well-being, it's for my own mental health. I need to shut it down and and not come in. And I guess they didn't have that concept. But yeah, the the notion of a mental health day is now a commonplace in in a lot of uh employment, and that would have been unheard of for most of my life. I would have never thought you can just call up to a job and say, it's for my own mental health. I uh I don't feel like coming into work. I mean, I would call in every day because I never feel like going into work with most jobs, but it was interesting because I had like overcome my old person instinctive reaction to that, which it was a kind of hey, you kids get off my porch kind of thing. Like, how dare you not go into work just because you don't feel like it? And then I had to think about that. Well, wait a minute, I'm on their side. I I wish the world was more like that. I think that's probably a change for the good. The young people defy those kinds of rules now that you're expected to come into work no matter how you're feeling emotionally, you know. So I guess if if the world can change to accommodate that, that's probably a good thing. Yeah.

Nic: 11:48

So Greg, did you like find that instinct hard to overcome, or was it easy, like kind of once you like made that thing you want to do?

Craig: 11:54

I think once I was conscious of it, I was able to overcome it pretty quickly. Um, because I I think you have to get out of the mode of wanting everybody to suffer however you've suffered. Yeah. Because that's like a it's like a hazing culture. It's like, well, when I was growing up, we had to do X, Y, and you know, we had to walk three miles in the snow to get to school. You know, how dare you not have to do that? But just because we went through shit when you were younger, it doesn't make it right. It doesn't mean every generation has to endure the same things. Yeah. So I think you have to get out of that mode of of thought. Now there could still be pros and cons to the issue. I mean, is it really responsible or will it be uh you know exploited if people do feel like they have the freedom to just not go to work when they don't feel like going to work? I mean, there may be issues with the economy and such, is that really gonna work? Um, but I don't know. I mean, I hope, like I said, I hope that can be accommodated. I think it's a positive attitude that people don't want to feel obligated to work, you know, every day of their life, no matter how they're feeling.

Sam: 13:00

Yeah.

Colette: 13:01

I I've read or it was like either an article or a YouTube video about like the child, your childhood family's relationship to sleep. Like that there's sleep um supportive homes and then sleep unsupportive homes.

Sam: 13:20

Yeah.

Colette: 13:20

And I definitely came up in like a an unsupportive sleep home where you know, we all know like teenagers need a ton of sleep because they're growing, right? And they just work on a different circadian rhythm because they because their bodies are still developing. But in my home, like if I slept more than eight hours, it was a problem. Like I would get woken up, didn't matter how tired or exhausted I was, like, really, you know, no more than eight or nine hours, and like you're done. And like come in, my parents would wake me up um and tell me to stop being lazy and get out of bed. And it's like, well, why is sleep so synonymous with laziness? But apparently that's not normal. Like, not uh in every family, like that there are homes that it's like if you need sleep, you should take sleep because that's what health is.

Sam: 14:06

Yeah.

Colette: 14:06

Um, so I I I definitely think there's generation, there's a shift happening. Um, but I think it's slow, not necessarily uh always like generation based, but just the mentality people have around rest, to your point, Greg.

Craig: 14:23

My my family was was unhealthy in the opposite direction. Um well, first of all, my my family was unhealthy in every possible way. Right. But that's that's a long story. But no, I I had a very uh negative uh uh eccentric father. And he had a lot of weird arbitrary rules. And one of the rules, um which he I mean it wasn't consistent, but uh, you know, at times he would decide it was a rule is he would try to enforce that you have to get a certain amount of sleep. So if I would wake up, you know, not necessarily on a school day or when you have to get up, but like on a Saturday or Sunday, I'd wake up and uh, you know, I'm awake, so of course I want to get out of bed. Well, you weren't allowed to. It's like he he had a vague idea. Well, I think you went to bed or on such and such, it's only been X number of hours. Um, you know, stay in bed, and I would actually get in trouble if I didn't lay there for another two or three hours, just you know, waiting to get up. Interesting. And I I don't know. I I thought it was a a nonsensical rule, but but it but it was the opposite of what you're describing. It's like, no, you have to stay in bed longer than you want to.

Nic: 15:30

And that that's fascinating to me because that reminds me of so it's I think it's true throughout your adulthood, but it's a conversation I have all the time when I'm doing my physical therapy with clients. Oh, yeah, like having to teach them the difference between what's normal and what's normalized. Ah like this is normal. This is just something you've been taught to endure or extend or whatever. And that's that's true, even something like that, right? You that's what you grew up with, so you think, oh, this is how things are, and you grow up and go, oh.

Craig: 15:56

No, I thought it was insane at the time. Ahead of your time, so you no, you were ahead of the curve on that one.

Colette: 16:03

You did that line on me when I first met you. I was your patient, and you were a physical therapist at Oshner.

Nic: 16:08

I don't know, that was a very long time ago. Sounds like you said it before, though. Do I do I have a certain Rolodex of free? Yes. Yeah, you should.

Colette: 16:17

You should all clinch.

Craig: 16:19

Well, uh so do we need to get to relationships or company.

Sam: 16:22

Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Um this is actually it's kind of nice. See, that's why I love these these little innocuous questions. They connect to so many deeper things. And and so we're we're talking about relationships, and so obviously we are.

Craig: 16:35

No, is I I wanted to follow up with Colette and not not specifically on how do you recharge the specific question, but um in re in uh addressing it, um you mentioned that sometimes your mind is racing and and you need to uh find ways to slow it down or to deal with that issue. And that struck me because um I mean I've heard that expression before, and maybe I experienced something vaguely like it when I was younger, but just in the last maybe five years, I've had occasional experiences, usually laying in bed at night that I I can only describe as my mind is racing. Oh and uh it it is it's a very disconcerting feeling.

Colette: 17:22

It is, yeah. And it doesn't feel like you're in control of your own mind.

Craig: 17:25

Exactly. That's exactly what I was gonna say. It is it feels like I'm losing control. Not in the sense of like something external, like you know, a schizophrenic person hearing voices or something, but uh just that I I'm not able to regulate my own mind anymore and control what I think about and how I think about it. Yeah, like it's it's doing it on its own. My mind has a mind of its own. And I had never experienced that until fairly recently.

Colette: 17:48

It's been happening to me where I'm dead asleep, and I normally I could sleep like a rock. And I've been waking up with them. And I'm like, I didn't ask you to be here. Oh, wow. I did not consent to this, just suddenly being woken up with thoughts that I don't care about. It's 4 a.m. Like, why am I thinking about this right now? And like do everything that I know how to do to try and stop it, and I just can't. And it's been maddening. Um, I I think I'm gonna uh ultimately talk to my therapist about it and see if, like, are there medications I can be on or something? And like slow the temperature or slow the the rhythm down here because it's been a lot.

Nic: 18:26

Yeah, I've experienced I'm not gonna say the opposite, but the situation where you're like, it's just cruising. I'm tired. I'm gonna lay down. And then and through conversations with therapy and things like that, I've kind of had that moment of like, oh, what's actually happening is I'm now realizing how little time I give myself during the day to think about the things this brain wants to think about. And so it says, Oh, well, you're laying down now, buddy, you're not doing anything else. Guess what you're gonna do? Yeah. So being able to sort of like find ways to pace my day differently, and and it's it's forced me to make space for myself during my day. Yeah so that it I don't I don't have a bad relationship with myself when I go to lay down at night.

Colette: 19:09

No, that makes sense in the context of just like this past week, I it's been really bad. And it's because I've my days have been so crammed in that I haven't had any time to process one meeting from the next. And so at the end of the day, it's like this avalanche of thought that's just been building up. Um so that also explains why I've been so tired. Well, because my brain's been like stop thawing all day long.

Sam: 19:34

Yes. Oh, stop. That's an interesting way to think about it. Yeah. Stop thinking.

Colette: 19:38

Yeah.

Nic: 19:39

Next podcast, 4M episode. Oh no, I mean, this is actually really well, I mean, it makes me I it makes me realize that this is actually probably something we can talk about in much greater detail detail because I think we all have Yeah, I think everybody has a weird relationship with resting and with how all the things that come along with it, not only just that we we control, but like like you were saying, Craig, like I would probably after the c the podcast, I want to talk to you like, so when did this start happening? And like to live your whole life not like that, right? And then have it show up.

Craig: 20:14

It's almost it's usually the end it it could it could have a scary quality, too.

Sam: 20:19

Yeah.

Craig: 20:20

Uh almost more hypothetical in the sense that I I feel like I'm on the verge of losing control, but then I can imagine, well, what if it's like this all the time or or or it's more extreme than what I'm feeling right now? What would that be like to really not be in control of your own mind? That's that would be a scary kind of mental illness to me. Yeah. It's all these thoughts running through that you have no control over.

Sam: 20:42

Don't begin in my business. This is your and just I knew it. Reese was gonna make a surprise appearance.

Rhys: 20:51

It is Reese. No, everything y'all are describing is something I've struggled with for like at least six to ten years pretty constantly. And so you were saying, like, man, these intense thoughts, and they wake you up. I mean, that's like every night that I lay down as racing thoughts, and it is very disconcerting. Oh, it is, yeah. Um and the only thing that I have found that is helpful is to there's a difference too between like rest and sleep.

Colette: 21:19

Yeah.

Rhys: 21:20

And the only thing is to give myself a period of rest before sleep.

Colette: 21:25

So later Don't you do a bunch of journaling?

Rhys: 21:27

Yeah, I journal a lot. Then that helps with the thought dumping so that it doesn't overwhelm me up on avalanche at night. Um, doing a lot of walking during the day. But also, yeah, when I lay down, I try to listen to like a very calming his name's Orin.

Nic: 21:43

Tell us more about Orin.

Rhys: 21:45

I'm like Orin. He's uh my meditation guy.

Nic: 21:48

And Orin, if you're listening, it puts me to sleep.

Rhys: 21:50

Yeah, if you're listening, calm out um thirty minutes every night, and it just puts you to sleep. But that's my period of rest. Oh wow. Then I get up again just to Like do the final T's and C's or whatever, and then I fall asleep. But if I don't do that, it's just the the wheel, uh, the mouse on a wheel thing.

Nic: 22:09

Yeah, so so that makes me want to ask you something, Reese. How long have you been using the com app?

Rhys: 22:14

Probably only about two years.

Nic: 22:16

Have you years? Have you felt good about your relationship to the app and the time you've used it?

Rhys: 22:22

Very good.

Nic: 22:23

I I asked that because so a lot of this heady stuff, my wife has been ahead of the curve of me for a long time. She used it, opportunity to get this like great deal on a lifetime discount, so I get it. And initially I have this long run of like, oh, I don't use it as much as she does. Oh 20 washes, or and now in a point where like she does like meditation, so this, listen to that. I'll just like I'll put it on, I'll use some calming music, and that's that's my thing. So it it it took a minute for me to like find my lane within that massive landscape and be okay with just like I'm okay sitting here and doing this thing and not using the other 95 things I could use it for.

Rhys: 22:59

Yeah. I I think I probably the utilization of that app is like less than one percent. I think I've I use it like for one. Oren's the only one who's spoken to me. We're we're we're one percenters, so yeah. So um again, going back to like finding your thing.

Colette: 23:15

Yeah, I I read cozy fantasy and like cozy novels, which there's like low plot, um, just character world building. Like my favorite one is an orc of Legends and Lattes. An orc is opening a coffee shop in a place that has doesn't know about coffee, and she's like introducing people to coffee, and then she falls in love with a succubus who is like the manager or the coffee of yeah, like you do. And um, and so yeah, like those calm my mind a lot. Um, but I do think there's something to this, like I need to do some sort of thought dumping because whenever I'm off the clock, I do not want to think about it. Yeah, I don't want to think about it, I don't want to talk about it in general. Like, I I just want to like leave it, but I'm I don't think I'm capable of doing that anymore.

Rhys: 24:08

I just want to say, well the audience can't see me scrolling back and forth. It was my bad. But oh, this might help you too, Colette. Because I it sounds crazy, but after work, I I used to drive, but you work remote, so I guess you don't drive. Yeah, I don't drive anymore. But I would not drive to any music, I would sit in silence. And I used to tell my ex-girlfriend, I was like, she's like, you're so weird. Because I would just sit there and I would file my thoughts, literally like a file cabinet of thoughts. And I I would just sit there and then like, okay, I'm done filing, and then you're done.

Colette: 24:42

That's been the hardest thing about working from home is not having those transitional spaces. Yeah.

Sam: 24:47

I that is something that I've I've worked from home probably my most of my career because I've traveled and stuff, but yeah, I'm I'm starting to realize the deficit of it.

Colette: 24:56

Yeah.

Sam: 24:56

Yeah. Of being around other people, but also there is no transitional space for you to go, oh, I'm done. I'm home now. No, home is work.

Nic: 25:06

My dad my dad did that. He um worked from home for his last 15 years. Yeah. He drove from work to home. So what happened was when no, he's a maniac, he would work from seven to eight, and then at 8 p.m., he would turn his computer off, go to the garage, get in his sports car, take a drive around town, grab a burger, whatever, and drive home. And now he has left work and returned home. Actually, and I did it good. Did it take him 45 years of working from home to figure that out? Yes. But he got there. That's what matters. Well, I can do it now.

Colette: 25:40

I do it sometimes. I'll go and get a cup of coffee from a local coffee shop in the morning before I start working. That is my preferred way to like start the workday, but I don't always plan ahead to do that. But it's still a good idea to do it at the end of the day.

Sam: 25:56

Well, we are severely warmed up.

Colette: 25:57

Yeah.

Sam: 25:58

In fact, we we probably could just go ahead and have a whole other podcast on top of it.

Craig: 26:02

Um you mean there's more?

Sam: 26:04

There is more. Yeah, there's wait, there's more. Um but we are gonna move on to our main question, even though we've already kind of touched on a little bit with relationships. And the the question for this particular episode is how do you define a healthy relationship and what have you learned the hard way? Because let's face it, we're not gonna learn anything the easy way.

Colette: 26:25

No, I'm too stubborn for that. Um, but before we get into that, let's review the curious code, uh, which is reviewed before every curious crew meeting. Uh, first off, just respect beats being right always. Uh, listen up and don't interrupt somebody as they are sharing. Keep an open mind because that's how we grow and respond with curiosity. Particularly try to respond with a question rather than a comment. The point is to build on what the person's saying, not um bring your own thing in immediately. And then uh make this a safe space for everyone every time. So, with that, let's get curious about how do you define a healthy relationship and what have you learned the hard way?

Sam: 27:10

Ugh. I I I'm I'm I must be like my own torture because like I I put this question up to get voted on, and then it got voted on, and I'm like, oh, that's probably the one thing I don't know if I want to talk about or not. He has become the beast he fears. That's right.

Colette: 27:25

You're still a newlywed, Sam.

Sam: 27:27

Yeah. Well, no, it's not about well, see, that's the one thing I thought about this question is like everybody thinks romantic relationships like Yeah, it's everything. But it's like and and honestly, I think we probably spend too much time thinking about romantic relationships and not like platonic or familial or you know, whatever.

Colette: 27:46

Yeah.

Sam: 27:46

Um so like this is you can pick your lane, like if it's romantic or familial or you know, whatever. Um but I I'll start if I mean I don't want to start, but somebody else can start. Oh, Craig? I know I don't like putting him on the spot. All right. Because I know you've you've you've thought about this in detail and probably have written a several books. Oh great. Yeah.

Craig: 28:14

Yeah, I can I can spontaneously answer this off the top of my head. Um I don't know. How do you define a healthy relationship? I don't know, Sam.

Sam: 28:24

Yeah. I know.

Craig: 28:26

It's because he didn't know the answer.

Sam: 28:27

So no, I I do think it's different for everybody. But then there is a normative it's him.

Colette: 28:34

What's normalized for that whole thing?

Craig: 28:37

I don't know. It's kind of a paradox because I think I've as I've gotten older and more experienced, I I think I've gotten somewhat better in understanding relationships and what makes for a good relationship or how a person can can be uh can behave appropriately in a relationship to make it a healthy relationship. Um so I think I understand a little bit better. I think my behavior to some extent matches that understanding. But the paradox is I have shitty relationships or have a lag of relationships. Yeah. Um so I I really haven't been I don't have a track record of success of connecting with people. It's been more the exception than the rule that I have. And but I I you know I think I'd uh if people gave me a chance, I'd be better at it. But no, I think I was an okay boyfriend if we're gonna talk about romantic relationships. I was probably an average to above average boyfriend when I was young. And I think I'd be a much better one now just because I'm much more mature emotionally, morally, and everything else. So I I'd I'd certainly be better than the 20 or 30-year-old me. But I never get opportunities to. Yeah. Because I just I'm not good at bringing those opportunities about. So I don't have many relationships, but I but I don't think I'm bad at relationships, if that makes any sense. Yeah. I think it's more hypothetical. I would be good at it if I had more chances to do it. Yeah.

Colette: 30:08

Well, what about friendship?

Craig: 30:10

No, I I think you know, I I don't have a lot of relationships of that nature either, but I have some. And they mostly go well. You know, not perfect. And and I I know some flaws I have. I'm conscious of some things I don't do well in relationships, both romantic and non-butly, you know, I think the non-romantic relationships have been more successful than not. I have a small number of relationships I've had for decades with close friends. Um, I'm not a real gregarious person. I don't have a huge number of people in my life that I can say I'm friends with, but I think I've done okay with friendships. Um but how I would define what makes I don't know. I I mean as far as what I what I try to emphasize or what how I try to be in a relationship that I think is healthy, um one is to focus more on listening. So it's more important to listen than to look for every opportunity to express yourself. Yeah. Because if I'm in a relationship, I'm more interested in the other person. See, I I'm with me all the time. Yeah, I don't you know I don't need to constantly express myself and all that because I I already know what I think and how I see the world. And you know, I'm trying to get inside somebody else's head and and understand them. But also you just you're a better partner if you actually listen and and focus more on the other person than on yourself. And um like I say, I I've I've been with myself enough. I I've I'm already good at meeting my own needs and all that. I I don't I don't need a relationship so that other people can meet my needs. But I I what I need a relationship for is I don't get enough of an outlet to be good to other people or to meet other people's needs. Interesting. And when I did last time I did have a girlfriend for a couple years, uh I I became conscious of that. You know what I value about this more than anything else is the chance to actually make somebody else happy. And the chance to focus on somebody other than myself. And I haven't had that in my life very much, and this is really refreshing to have that in my life now, and that's what I appreciate as much as anything, is to finally not be selfish or not be, I don't know, I wouldn't say selfish, but not be so self-centered, self-oriented. Um so I think focusing on the other person and and and listening and try to adapt to them and and do right by them has to be the main focus. And if the other person does the same back to you, that's great. Um I guess that would be a healthy relationship is if you're both more concerned about the other person than about yourself. That that'll be my definition of a healthy relationship. Yeah. You're both more focused on the other person.

Nic: 32:50

Well, you stole mine. Do you do you think you're and I say I often refer to my brain and me as a different do you feel like your brain ever tried to tell you that like your your presence or number of those type of relationships and your effectiveness within them were the same thing? Or like at some point you're like, well, I must not have that many friends because I'm not that good of a friend, or is that something that you can you know?

Craig: 33:14

Um, I I don't think well I have a very strong ego in some respects and not others. And and I think uh I tend to distinguish my opinion of myself and how I anticipate others will think of me. So I so I tend to have a a a high opinion of myself, probably too high, but I don't for that reason think that other people are gonna na naturally approve of me or or or you know be attracted to me. So I I'm usually focused on trying to be the best person I can be. Right. And sometimes that works in bringing other people into my life and and being the sort of person they want to have in their life, and sometimes it doesn't. But that's more a byproduct. You know, it's not what it's not what I'm intentionally trying to do. Um I don't know. I'm I'm giving a poor answer to your question. I'm just kind of rambling.

Nic: 34:17

No, that I get you you like you you don't let whether or not that connection happened successfully change your judgment of just kind of like who you are.

Craig: 34:24

That's yeah, because I'm not pragmatic about that stuff. It's not like I'm you know, yeah, I'm I'm gonna ramble some more about myself. Oh no. Um let's make this whole broadcast, the whole podcast about me.

Sam: 34:36

I'm down. Well, good. So I won't have to answer you. That's great.

Craig: 34:39

I think one of the reasons I haven't been that great at relationships or haven't had as as many relationships is because I don't have a desperate need for it. And I think if if you're unable to be alone, or if you're miserable alone, then that uh desperation. I mean, I uh people say it's unhealthy, like you'll never get into a good relationship if you're desperate and clingy and all that. I think the opposite is true. People who can't exist on their own always end up in relationships, you know, because they you know, they're the their their nature forces them to. Well, I'm pretty self-sufficient. I mean, I know I can be alone and I've I've spent much of my life alone. I I'm not gonna be depressed or suicidal if I don't have a partner. And as a result, I I don't have any desperation about it. So maybe I in some subtle ways I don't make that extra effort. I don't do the I don't make the compromises to do the things you would have to do to bring that into your life because I'm okay alone. You know, I'd probably rather have a good partner, but I don't hate being alone, so I don't have that desperation factor that drives me into relationships.

Nic: 35:44

Interesting. I can say I can I can probably take a lot from Greg because I've I've well no, because I've had the opposite experience, at least in the sense that so what month is this? This is February.

Colette: 35:55

Yeah.

Nic: 35:56

This past October was 11 years I've been married, and I found that slightly differently, the the longer I've been married, the harder I've had to work to do things with not my wife. Sort of have that kind of distinct sense of self outside of the marriage, so it's just its own realization of oh, maybe I was in some effect getting married to to have that union, but also to like delay the work of being okay being on my own, and oh, maybe I should work on that now.

Sam: 36:28

Yeah. Do you think that's um how was I gonna say this? Do you think your ability to you know not feel uh desperate, which I it sounds like you're just very comfortable with yourself. I guess you could also say that you're introverted, but that's yeah, but um for sure. Do you think that's do you think that's a good thing or a bad, like in your mind, or is it just a thing to you? You know what I'm trying to say?

Colette: 36:59

Do you have some morality uh feelings about it?

Craig: 37:04

That's a hard question. Yeah. That's a hard question because probably in some respects it's how I choose to be. If I I think it's appropriate to be a certain way, but in part it's just who I am. Yeah. So so I I guess it's a combination. It's it's partly by choice, or I think it's good and partly just totally neutral. Just yeah, I'm an introvert and I'm used to being alone. Yeah. So it's it's not good or bad.

Sam: 37:32

Yeah.

Craig: 37:33

So somewhere in between, I don't know.

Sam: 37:34

No, no, no, no. Well, I mean, because like that's what I was thinking, because like on paper, like you want to like what you were saying, Nick, you have to have an individualized self, but not too much, you know, because then you're like, I won't need anybody, but but then you also don't want to like, oh, I need people and have no individu, you know. I I'm I'm trying to answer this question myself, actually, so I was just really more interested in your answer because I'm I that's something I'm struggling with myself. Like because I I used to and like I could be alone, I have no problem with it. And now as I've gotten older, I've switched I almost I've I've hit the polar opposite of it. It's like I I hate being alone now because I I think there was a lot of negative stuff around it. Whereas I think it was a hell like I I how I'm interpreting what you're saying is like there's a healthy it's like everything, there's a healthy aspect to it, and then there's a shadow side to it that could be neutral or could be you know negative, if if that makes sense.

Craig: 38:42

I think it's more natural for me to be alone. It's not necessarily for the best, but um when I'm in a relationship or I'm with people one-to-one or socializing, uh there is an intentionality to it. I'm having to to uh I'm having to be self-conscious about how to do it. Because my natural state is to be alone. My natural state isn't to be around people and interacting with people. So I don't I don't have any high level of anxiety about it, and I don't dislike it, but there is a certain artificiality, like I have to kind of remind myself how to do this. Yeah, you know, it's it's not uh second nature to me.

Nic: 39:21

Yeah. I appreciate you doing the podcast then.

Craig: 39:23

And I I think most a lot of people are these act, and maybe that's just the difference in introvert and extrovert, but a lot of people these act opposite. They're really only themselves when they're around people and interacting with people and they're not at all comfortable being alone. Like you were saying, you know, you've had periods where you you can't be alone, you hate being alone.

Sam: 39:40

Yeah, yeah.

Craig: 39:40

I've never had a period like that where I hated being alone.

Colette: 39:45

Well, from like it makes me also think about some of what I know about Sam, but now in my own exploration, there are times, well, Nick and Sam's it was recently where I was like, I don't want to be perceived.

Sam: 40:01

Yeah.

Colette: 40:02

Like I would like to cease in existence of the minds of other humans, not cease in to exist, period. But like I don't want to, I don't I don't want anyone to want anything from me right now.

Nic: 40:14

I do not want to die, but I would like a cloak of invisibility.

Colette: 40:17

Yeah, I would very much like a cloak of invisibility. And um, and that's definitely related to why what is that? Is that me? Um I thought it maybe if it is, I thought I'd turn my phone.

Sam: 40:29

You have such a pleasant ring. Everything about you is pleasant, Craig. I don't know why you like DLO, because like you're a gift, you know that? Um I'm gonna turn this off.

Craig: 40:38

I'm gonna try and turn it off. I'm not a phone person. Okay, I think it's off.

Nic: 40:42

We believe in you.

Colette: 40:43

Uh uh, so yeah, I've I'm very introverted as well. I, you know, need a lot of alone time to recharge, is what I mean when I say introverted. But I also really love being around other people and communities really important to me. Um and what I've learned in my like exploration of trauma healing is that in large part my need to not be perceived is like my nervous system saying, like, this is too much. You are used to hiding, you are used to protecting yourself, and like uh now I'm in a role where it's a lot of people needing a lot from me, like all the freaking time is fucking exhausting. Um and uh very rarely get asked like how I'm doing, you know? Uh very one-sided dynamic. Um and those are exhausting, right? But that seeking for for aloneness uh has come back in like full force in a way that it hasn't since in a couple of years. Um, but it does feel like a bit of like a return to self to want to be alone. Because I'm like you, I really enjoy being alone. It does not bother me at all. I literally was crocheting for hours before I came here, me and no one, no one but my animals. Um, though I have wondered, do you have pets? Because for me, I just love being around animals.

Craig: 42:14

I I don't currently, but I I did for a time and I I I'm very much an animal person. I enjoyed having them a lot.

Colette: 42:20

Yeah. So it's like it makes me wonder is like, do you like being alone or do you like being with animals? Because people suck so much.

Nic: 42:27

And those those are relationships too.

Colette: 42:29

Yeah.

Sam: 42:29

Oh for sure. I think they're very healthy. I mean, I know my with my with my dogs, like they're very recharging for me. Yeah. I hear you.

Colette: 42:40

I've well after while I was um I was like on kitty cat hospice in January and what I noticed in um kind of like helping my you know, uh my cat die and and um being with him was like in reflecting on why is this relationship so important. It was because it's like well, he gives to me as much as I give to him. And that's what felt really healthy about feels really healthy about that dynamic. Um and it's not always one-to-one. It's it's just the whole breadth of the relationship is like I I make sure that there's food in your and water in your bowls, and I scoop the shit out of your box and like take care of your bodily needs. Um and every time I've ever been in a hard way, that dude was on top of me. Like, you're gonna be okay, you're gonna make it through this.

Nic: 43:40

Um could you also clean the cat box? Yeah, healthy healthy relationship. Well, you pick up my shit. Yeah.

Colette: 43:46

Right. You pick up your shit, my shit, um, and I will pick up your emotional shit.

Sam: 43:52

Well, it's time to keep clean colette's uh emotion box. Here we go.

Colette: 43:56

Yeah. Just just a cat shoveling emotional bullshit. Out of my internal litter box.

Nic: 44:03

I see a new clown improv bit forming.

Colette: 44:05

Well, always. Yeah.

Nic: 44:09

That was good, Craig.

Colette: 44:10

That's really good.

Nic: 44:11

That was really good. Although I'm I'm curious to ask you, Colette, um, whether anyone answered it or not. I know you you've had a relationship recently that has changed. I'm curious whether or not the the the change from one relationship to the other has given you insight into the health of either or really change your perspective.

Colette: 44:31

Oh, like with my partner being a friend to a partner. Is that what you're talking about? Okay, yeah. Um, yeah, it has changed. Obviously, the dynamic has changed because and we I've been trying to figure this out because I am very committed in friendships. So I know commitment isn't I've been trying to figure out like what's the difference between a romantic relationship and a friendship. Um and the at first I was like, well, maybe it's about commitment, but no, I have friends that I'm deeply committed to, even more so than my current romantic partner. Neither one of us have a problem with that. That's just how it is, right? Um, and so like what is it that makes a relationship change? And I think the intimacy of the relationship changes, not just from like a physical perspective, but I um I feel a pull to want to share more than I would with a friend. Oh um, and and make and for that to feel reciprocal. Um but I also during the period we were trying to figure out like we're definitely more than friends, but what does that mean? Yeah, uh was part of the conversation that we were having, and it helped that she like went away for a month on a train trip. Yeah, she was on a train for a month, um, like around the country. And um one thing that she said when she came back was like she kind of purged her life a little bit and then like recommitted to some other relationships, and then our relationship deepened because she was like, I I realized who I was missing. Ooh, and I think that's an important part of the and like when she was gone, I really did miss her as well. And so it's like uh the depth of her of a relationship depends on me how much I miss that person or like how much my life is missing because that person isn't in it. Um that whole like absence makes the heart grow fonder. I don't think it's true. I think absence show you what your heart desires.

Sam: 46:45

Ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Colette: 46:47

And that was my the case for me. Um, but friendship is still the foundation of our relationship. I I have a track record of um, so like I was very committed, uh, you know, was planning a life with somebody out of high school, like a high school sweetheart into college. Um we broke you know broke up broke up because I don't like men in that way. That old looking back, yeah, um that old gym, right? And uh, but we're still best friends, and it's like, well, we made that shift, and um but I still think like friendship is the foundation of every relationship, period. Uh and what that means is like that it's there's a lot of mutuality in it.

Sam: 47:39

Um what do you mean by mutuality?

Colette: 47:42

Yeah, good question. Um, I mean like not not in a transactional way, but that we got each other's back.

Nic: 47:49

Yeah, I know what you mean by a balanced way, right?

Colette: 47:52

Um, I have had the thing I've learned the hard way around relationships is that I used to never tell my speak my needs. Um if they were being met, it was without that person really knowing necessarily. Was that you uh having a moment, you biting your thumb neck and zipping it up? Yeah.

Sam: 48:18

He's practicing the code, very good.

Colette: 48:20

Right, there you go. And so, like I uh I I would defer my own needs and always be meeting other people's needs. And so I got into these really one-sided dynamics where then I have all of this resentment built up and bitterness built up uh because my needs aren't being met and they couldn't necessarily like I think needs to meet. There are some needs that need to be met individually, but I think there are some that need to be met communally. And um, and that just wasn't there. And the the person didn't, I didn't feel like the person considered me as much as I considered them. I think ultimately that's why when I was married for a short amount of time, that didn't work, was because I was cons it there was a lot of that, and then she wanted to go back to being friends, and I couldn't because you divorced me without talking to me about it. You made the decision without me, and you expect me just to like take the L and then continue being friends with you. But every relationship that I've had that I've been successfully able to go from friends to romantic back to friends was because there was a constant consideration of both parties.

Sam: 49:35

Yeah, yeah.

Colette: 49:36

And like, how do you feel about this relationship? How do I feel? And having like open conversation about it, and there's no guessing. I can't, I'm not, I'm not a fucking mind reader. I don't expect anyone else to be, but I feel like that's something that came up a lot for me in my relationships is that that I've had to learn is that you're not a mind reader, they're not a mind reader, you have to speak your needs, be an adult, communicate how you're feeling. Um and if you want more from that person, then ask for it. If they don't reciprocate, then the relationship just remains the way that it was. It doesn't mean that you've lost it, that they've rejected you or whatever, right? Um and that's been the the case so far with my current partner. Um, and we've talked about, I told her whenever we decided to have a more romantic partnership, that I told her, if there's at any point where the where your feelings about me change and that you don't want this depth of relationship, I really just need you to talk, talk to me. Yeah, and I'll promise to do the same thing because we can go back to being friends, but it needs to be on purpose and intentionally, and I have to feel like I'm a part of that conversation that you're not just like unilaterally making decisions about the frame of our relationship without me. Yeah, like I'm not gonna try to cling on to you or anything, but I just need you to be honest, and it needs to be okay that I'm a little heartbroken and I'll lick my wounds a little bit and then I'll come back. Um, because that's what I've learned works for me. It's like I'm gonna need to lick my wounds a little bit, but just trust me, I'll come back. Yeah. Um, and we can go back to being friends, but the dynamic will be different, and that's okay. Um so I think communication is a big part of like healthy relationships and navigating that, but also a commitment to friendship.

Sam: 51:33

Interest. Yeah, I I I think a lot of romantic relationships that is not considered. Yeah, where it's the um Morgan and I talk about this sometimes when it's just like it's not, yeah, I mean, we're attracted, but it's like I also dislike being around each other. Yeah, you know, devoid of all that stuff. I mean, not always, you know. But but you know, yeah, that the friendship side of thing. I know that's something I definitely overlooked in most of my at least for romantic relationships, and all of my romantic relationships, I overlooked that that that part of things until now, the friendship part of things.

Colette: 52:15

Yeah.

Sam: 52:16

In fact, I'm still I'll be honest with you. The fact that you you've not only can you you can do this, be friends, romantic, then friends again, and the fact that you actually accomplished this in reality, yeah, is still in my head like, okay, yeah, Colette is significantly better than me.

Colette: 52:34

I I don't I think it's very content, like it's a very specific relationship with so my one of my best friends, James, he's the one that was we were together. Yeah, we've now all our friendship is now older than our relationship ever was. Um good anniversary, important, right? Especially because it can be, you know, his partners could get jealous, even though like really not interested.

Sam: 53:01

Good point, good no good point though.

Colette: 53:03

Yeah, and um, but I I I don't have a ton of other relationships, so I really just like that's a really important one. Um, I think it will be interesting for me to see, like, can I do it again? Uh um, I have every intention to like if that is something that needs to happen, that I can do it again. But I also think I don't know, um, I think I've noticed this is a is a big thing in the queer community that when you have such a small community, you have to. There's a um a bit of a a demand to do this. It's kind of a uh it's a lesbian kind of stereotype.

Sam: 53:43

My daughter was trying to explain that to me. Yeah because it's she has a relationship like that right now. And I and I it's it is. I'm like, okay, you're gonna have to just explain this to me again.

Colette: 53:51

Yeah.

Sam: 53:52

Yeah.

Colette: 53:52

It's yeah, it's very much stereotype that like uh every and and and my current partner and I have done this already where um I've met her exes and she's met my exes and we're all still friends with our exes. Um and then meet it'll be extra gay if I if either one of us end up with each other's exes, because that's also part of the stereotype.

Sam: 54:17

That classifies it as super gay. Okay, thank you. I just want I'm trying to get the categories right.

Colette: 54:22

And uh I think I think queer people have to do that because the queer community, especially in like rural spaces, is so small that if you lose a romantic partner, a friendship due to being romantic with that person, then your circle has gotten that much smaller. And like straight people can because it's everywhere. I said it's like it's like it's like it's a bacteria or bacteria, like it's everywhere. Um there's not that many queer spaces, but like two uh two straight people get together, they each can have their own coffee shop. Yeah, right? Um, or their own the their own favorite bar that they go to or like their own third uh their own third spaces. Yeah. Whereas in queer spaces there's not that many third spaces. Yeah. And so you really do have to make peace with the people you're in relationship with, unless you just want to be a hermit.

Sam: 55:17

Yeah. Because you're gonna bump into them.

Colette: 55:20

Or you have to move states, is what Reese just said.

Rhys: 55:23

Oh, move states. Oh Reese. I've definitely had to relocate states to get over next, and also my last relationship states were relocated too. Yeah, and that's the only way to endure the queer breakup.

Colette: 55:39

Yeah.

Nic: 55:40

I almost wonder if it's it's it's like an extra pressure of like you talk about you know losing someone with the community, so you have this this extra pressure of like I have to sort of like treat this as extra fragile because if this falls apart, I either have to like become a hermit, or the even worse alternative, which is I have to go find some other space and pretend to fit in there to fit somewhere. So I'm it's almost like replacing the place you belong with something else that's a pseudo-belonging. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Colette: 56:08

Wow.

Sam: 56:11

Well, it's down to us two now, man. Oh man, do we like thumb wrestle for it? No, no, because I'd beat you. It'd be real easy.

Colette: 56:18

Why I'd and dumb competent.

Sam: 56:21

What? Hey, uh, you don't know my path.

Colette: 56:24

That's the most dude bro thing I think you've ever said in my presence.

Sam: 56:27

I am a dude bro. You know, I I I'm one of those bacteria. No, just joke. Yeah, uh, you know, what's that? It's everywhere. Uh, you know, uh this was I actually was I'm I've I'm I'm gonna I'm kind of jump off what you said, Craig, but say it in my way. And actually it was it was because uh I I don't think I actually really thought I I gotta preface by saying I never really thought about relationships probably until like maybe the last 10 years of my life. They were just a thing that honestly I had to tolerate, you know, and because like I think most I was an insanely independent, but uh in fact to the so much so much to the point that I would say like I don't need relationships. Well, that's just categorically false, you know, and I found out the hard way of this. But I would say like and and this is what I and you you've said it, Colette, Craig said it, and and how I say it is like and and this is familial, uh friendships, it's it's romantic, it's like there has to be, and and it depends on the type of relationship it is, but the but the a healthy relationship, there has to be uh and you you said consideration, but I would say like fully giving and fully receiving. And and and and I like the consideration, I like the way you said that. Um but yeah, or like you're more like for for Craig, it was like you're you're genuinely more interested in what the other person is uh over yourself. But I also think how I jump off of both of those is is yeah, I want to make sure I fully give to somebody, and whether that's in whatever relationship it is, how that's defined, you know, in that relationship. But I also want to fully receive them.

Colette: 58:26

Yeah.

Sam: 58:27

Uh because I mean I think first of all, that's the only way I can ever actually know them and appreciate them more. But um, it also it grows me too, you know, to fully receive somebody as they are. Um, but I I I I probably yeah, that's the one I've learned the extremely hard way. Um, and uh because like I said, most of my life I I uh I feel like relationships were just a thing that I had to do to get by in life and and never really uh in a weird way never really considered the other people, and that goes all the way down to my parents, to my and I I I I've as I've you know look back in my life, even my friendships I've had, they they're almost utilitarian in a s in a case, in a sense, is it's like you're I I'm uh and it was it wasn't good for me either, because I would say, well, I'm a tool for this certain person, they're a tool for me, yeah, and this is how this exists, and when we're done with the tools, we can peace out. And uh boy, what a horrible existence that is, by the way.

Colette: 59:37

It's very common though. There's a lot, oh um, a lot of research out there that friendships uh are usually endurable through proximity. Oh, I would yeah, we talked about this night.

Sam: 59:48

Say say more about that though.

Colette: 59:50

You say um that a lot of most relations most friendships can't endure long distance.

Sam: 59:56

Yeah.

Colette: 59:56

Or like think about workplace friendships, how they so quickly dwindle.

Sam: 1:00:01

Yep.

Colette: 1:00:01

Um, and that's just part of being a human. Is that you most of us only have maybe like one really one or two really, really close friends.

Sam: 1:00:10

Yep.

Colette: 1:00:10

And then everyone else we call them friends, but they're more acquaintances. Uh I wouldn't even say acquaintance.

Sam: 1:00:16

Oh really?

Colette: 1:00:17

Friends by proximity.

Sam: 1:00:19

Proximity, yeah.

Colette: 1:00:20

It's sounds like kind of what you're describing.

Sam: 1:00:22

Yeah.

Colette: 1:00:23

With the utility thing.

Sam: 1:00:24

One obviously it was a defense mechanism, you know, just to make sure I didn't get hurt or I, you know, I didn't expose myself. Really, it's probably more like me being vulnerable and in and being hurt. Um Yeah, what a miserable prick you were. I don't I guess. I don't know. I mean, I uh uh yeah, I it probably, you know, not to get too far into therapy, I it it really hit me when I lost both my parents. And you know, I my dad passed away, and then about a year later my mom passed away. And um, and of course, you know, it's like delayed stuff. You're you you have the grief of it, and you're like, okay, moving on. Because like I I did their funerals, you know. Completed the grief. Yeah, I was just like, yep, I I did it, and I'm all good. And then meanwhile, I remember uh after my dad's funeral, after all this stuff, I just sat at the table and I remember I this is weird. I was writing something down and I saw water fall on a page, and it was my I was crying, and I didn't even know it. And I didn't even know why. And uh, but yeah, looking back and like doing a like almost like a postmortem of some of my relationships and be like, oh man, it it wow. And I there I feel like there's a point in my life I'm gonna go back and just with everybody I ever interacted with, I am gonna say, you probably don't even remember me, you know, or anything, but like, God bless, I'm sorry for you know doing this and that. I've done that for a few people. I'm like, what are you talking about? We never noticed. And I was like, Well, I noticed. And um, but it is that go back to what I was saying, the the fully giving and receiving, and boy, I wish that was easy. Because it is not.

Colette: 1:02:03

Yeah. The receiving in particular feels very vulnerable.

Sam: 1:02:07

In a weird way, yeah. That was unanticipated for me. Um, in fact, that like this weekend. Well, fun fact, I broke my foot a couple well right before Mardi Gras, and then uh um, and then because I yeah, I didn't go to the doctor, yeah. Blue collar.

Colette: 1:02:27

And uh um, there's tuck tape on that damn thing.

Sam: 1:02:31

Nope. Just a tight sock. And uh uh, but then I also because of that, it it walking like that and doing all that, it it I have a really bad back, and so that tweaked that off. And so it's I literally before I came here, like I was flat yesterday. I couldn't move. And you know, Morgan's asked me, Can I get anything for you? And I'm like, I'm fine. And of course I'm thirsty, and I get up in immense pain and I go get something to drink, and she's like, Why didn't you just ask me to do that? And I'm like, I got it, I got it. And in the meantime, I was like, What are you doing, man? You know, just let her get the damn drink for you. It's not like she's gonna be like, I'm gonna hold this over you the rest of your life, but it's it's weird, like why you're like why I'm like I'm glad I'm not alone in that anyway.

Colette: 1:03:15

Not at all.

Sam: 1:03:16

Yeah, yeah.

Craig: 1:03:18

When when you talk about the giving and receiving, I'm I'm trying not to chuckle because I'm I'm getting I I'm flashing on the uh Woody Allen's uh take the money and run, where his girlfriend is breaking up with him and they have this inane conversation about who's giving and who's receiving, and we're going back and forth, and it's it's hysterical, but it just overlaps a little bit with what you're saying. So I'm I'm just thinking with that like she's like, like Woody at one point says, Well, I'm the kind of person who can't receive unless the other person is giving.

Colette: 1:03:51

That's sort of the nature of the conversation. They're making points like that back and forth. Kind of redundant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig: 1:03:58

It's funny stuff, but anyway.

Sam: 1:04:00

Well, I mean, I it I'll have to watch the clip, but um well, it's it's you have to be receptive to what people are giving. Yeah, sometimes you're just not, but yeah.

Colette: 1:04:09

Well, it's about hyper-independence, right? And that's something I've been hearing in this whole thing, is um is that you have to I think part of the the the receiving in relationship is you have to put yourself in the vulnerable position to be the one that isn't the one in power in the like there is a power, it can be feel like there's a power exchange in giving and receiving. There shouldn't be, but that's like the world that we live in. And uh if you have trauma or relationship, the image is it's just that much harder. And so hyperindependence my as my therapist said, is a survival instinct of mine, is a way that I protect myself. Um, and I think that's why I haven't had that many relationships, is because it feels really in intolerable in a lot of ways to receive.

Sam: 1:05:06

Yeah.

Colette: 1:05:07

So to go back to your question, then yeah, I would say that's the thing that's changed in my relationship with Sarah is that I'm willing to receive more from her as a partner than a friend.

Craig: 1:05:17

I think it's an intriguing the direction this conversation has drifted in. And it almost it makes me feel like I I I've kind of wanted to reformulate the question, like when it was asked as what makes for a healthy relationship, or how would you define a healthy relationship? I was kind of drawing a blank. But I think what we've done is is we've discussed a overlapping question with that. Um maybe reformulated a little bit. Um, let me put it this way. Um I'm struck by the fact that almost everybody I know, everybody I talk to, especially older people, maybe not. Quite as true for kids or for young adults, but especially for older people. Almost everybody has less human connection in their life than they want. They have fewer relationships or less good quality relationships, whether quantity or quality or both are lacking in their life. So if everybody wants that, if everybody wants to have friendships, everybody wants to have a romantic partner, why doesn't it happen? You have all these people who who who are wandering around alone, not wanting to be alone. We are surrounded by other people who are alone who don't want to be alone. So why is it so I guess the question I have then is insofar as we haven't been ideal in our relationships or haven't succeeded in in getting everything we want in terms of human relationships, why? You know, what have we done wrong? And I think it's interesting that we've kind of drifted that way naturally. But what most of us are saying kind of addresses that. Like, well, what have I been doing wrong, or what is it about me or my childhood, or my frame of mind, my worldview, my values? What is it about me and the way I've interacted with people, the kind of person I am that's resulted in my not having the kind of relationships I want? Because I think that's an interesting question or an important question. How come we're more alone than we want to be if everybody is in that same state? Yeah, everybody wants to connect. Well, then why are we connecting?

Sam: 1:07:31

Go ahead.

Colette: 1:07:32

So this reminds me of my therapy appointment where I made the decision to marry my now ex-wife. And I told my therapists, I'm scared to do this because I'm afraid she's gonna break my heart. And but I'm going to do this because the risk of love is worth the risk of pain. And I've like one of my big observations about our culture is that we are so risk or pain averse. Yeah, pain averse. And like human connection will inevitably lead to some level of pain.

Sam: 1:08:11

Um it's kind of a given. It's a given. We assume, but we forget that.

Colette: 1:08:15

Right. Yeah. And so like you have to kind of um, I don't know, beef up your pain tolerance in order to be willing to take that risk. It's kind of my how I feel uh about myself. Um I would say I'm not one of those people. I've I love my friendships. I have as many of them as I would like that are almost all at the depths that I would like them to be at. Uh and they don't feel surface, they feel like life-giving and affirming and um mutual, mutual, like healthy uh for the first time. Uh I think that's why last year one thing I was saying throughout the year was like, I think this is the best year of my life. And it was because of that um that I finally had the the I finally had that that I had been searching for. Um and I've been but it it is I have been willing to like be in pain to um to be hurt by people and then to recover.

Craig: 1:09:23

Do you think that's um romantic relationships specifically or all close relationships? About all of my close relationships. So they all require a certain risk taking or certain willingness to uh like you're aware there's probably gonna be some pain involved, or there could be significant pain, but being willing to do that any to go into it anyway.

Colette: 1:09:44

Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. Like I'm I'm willing in friendships, I'm willing to be offended, I'm willing to offend, I'm willing to forgive. I also believe in forgiveness a lot and uh and reconciliation, and I'm going to I will apologize if I messed up, and I want to be in relationship with people who would do the same, who are not so proud as to like you know, subvert their ego a bit to restore a relationship.

Sam: 1:10:14

Yeah.

Craig: 1:10:14

Um and in the past you uh didn't have as much willingness to be vulnerable like that. So you you notice the contrast now compared to the person you used to be?

Colette: 1:10:26

Yeah, for sure. I am much more willing uh to be hurt by people because I know that I can uh that I can endure it, that it won't kill me.

Nic: 1:10:35

Yeah.

Colette: 1:10:36

Yeah.

Nic: 1:10:36

So I guess I can I can finally speak up and answer the first question as well as your your second question. And I thought, you know, what what better time than a conversation on healthy relationships to bring a Liam Gallagher?

Sam: 1:10:47

Of course, like you do.

Nic: 1:10:48

So um he was talking to someone, and the question was about um his experience with like performing in concerts and um like individual fans, groups of fans, whatever sort of being upset at them performing and performing their song differently than the album version, that sort of thing. And my this line with that stuck with me is him talking about how I do my best to not get too married to that album because all that song right there is is a recording of how it felt to play that song at that moment. Yeah, and it's it's it reminded me of sort of uh a component of healthy relationships being um not getting too married to any version of yourself, whether it's you or your partner or the two of you together, um, just because I I know that there's been um in a lot of relationships or a lot over time, this this need to defend the expectations I have of myself or of my partner or of the two of us, and just having that ongoing conversation of oh, I I need to be ready at any time to have a conversation and sort of re-establish that expectation and and move forward versus you know, quietly resenting myself for what I thought was going to happen or or or that sort of thing, and just you know, being okay with um, oh, I guess this is not part of who I am anymore. Okay, cool. I can now sort of repaint that picture of myself and and use that going forward and just sort of much like you said with with the hurt, just sort of like, and the the more you do that, the more you get okay with that process, the more it just becomes part of your vernacular versus this difficult thing that you're doing, and and it it really pays dividends going forward.

Sam: 1:12:40

When do you think you caught on to that?

Nic: 1:12:43

Is this 2026? So 2021?

Sam: 1:12:47

Yeah. Probably not the easy way, I'm guessing.

Nic: 1:12:50

No, it's um there were there was you know, that was that was true for a long time of of um my wife is my first marriage, I'm her second marriage. Um, and it took a number of years to realize that a lot of the times that I would do something and she would shut down, it's because I was doing a thing that was reminiscent of some bad thing that happened between her and her first partner, and then just realizing to have the conversation of like, okay, I I understand, I like a validate your feeling and I I understand that, but you know, as my favorite quote is like, you don't know what this person is is doing right now. As much as it may seem like something you've experienced before, you haven't experienced this moment, so you have to take that step back and like okay, let's talk. What are you what are you feeling about it? Why are you oh, because of this, okay. And one of my favorites is um literally the conversation she and I had fairly recently about how I'll have a lot of moments where I just need like some quiet time to to process or whatever, and I'll just be like in my office, lights off, just chilling. And she would often like avoid me during those times, and I was it only took me a year to get curious about it. Uh yeah, but I eventually said, Well, what's up? She said, Oh, well, it turns out, you know, for a long time with my parents, when my dad lost an argument, he would go in the bedroom in the dark and sulk. Interesting. Oh, so okay, I can make a mental note to because there's no real reason that I do it exactly that way. I can do it in a slightly different way that isn't as triggering for you, while also you're saying, okay, this is different time, different place. I can both now I see your I see you making an effort to do it differently in a way that's not as intense for me. Yeah. And I'm I'm now more able to be curious in that moment instead of defensive. And so just having that conversation and and experiencing the joy of how the two of us are able to turn that kind of moment of tension into a moment of growth is is a really rewarding feeling.

Sam: 1:14:49

Well, it's tough being vulnerable though, like that.

Nic: 1:14:52

Mm-hmm.

Sam: 1:14:53

Yeah. That's a I think that's the hardest skill to learn.

Nic: 1:14:56

It it's it's it's just like any sk it's um I'm a physical therapist, so I talk about every patient I've ever had. I tell them it's they they struggle, and I say, um, you know, you have to remind yourself this is the hardest it's ever gonna be. Um I like that. But if you'll humor me, I want to have a little fun with you guys. Because this is this is this is my favorite thing to teach everybody every time I talk to them right now. Okay, here we go. So if you guys will cross your arms for me. Oh like like whatever's your usual way of crossing your arms. Okay. Just you just do the thing right and kind of notice like what position you're in and your arms and da-da-da-da-da. Right. Am I am I a right hand over person? Am I a left hand under person, whatever? And don't don't move yet. But when I say one, two, three, change, you'll relax your arms and then exactly switch. So switch everything exactly opposite, right? So one, two, three, change, your arms go, and then do whatever this is weird, right? I don't like it. And and I tell people that the the secret is this is how weird change is supposed to feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why it's hard because you're like, go back, go back, switch, hurry, go back. Yeah, and it's but it's just having that moment of like, oh, okay, that was miserable, but it's never gonna be that bad ever again. Yeah. So just being able to sit in that moment of discomfort, yeah.

Sam: 1:16:16

Yeah. Well, I wonder if that answers you goes back to your question, Craig, is like, I I wonder if we have I mean, I would probably say yeah. We've we've become more how do I say averse to discomfort.

Nic: 1:16:32

We have so many more ways to avoid discomfort. Yeah.

Sam: 1:16:35

Yeah. And it's so funny, but it's something that's such a basic, I mean, I I would have to say almost you need it. You need relationships in your life. Some I mean, obviously the number and what they are is different for everybody. But you need to have them, but we're also coming to the point where like, oh, but I don't have to necessarily have them because I have all these other ways to engage, and they're much less painful than this one, than doing it this way. I'm guessing. Yeah, like parasocial relationships with celebrities or or uh uh your Xbox buddies is probably easier than uh I I caught on to that when my daughter was maybe like 10 or when YouTube was a big thing for that for that particular generation. And I remember she was saying, My friend did this, my friend did that, my friend did this, and most of it was pretty like okay, yeah, it sounds boring. And then, oh, my friend did this, and it was like, Where is this friend exactly in Southern California? Where is this friend? And it's like, oh, it's this YouTuber, and it's like, Oh, you don't know this person at all, then yeah, but it's like that's your friend, and and I remember uh I struggled a lot. It's like, do I tell her that's not what a friend is? And and do I or do I but or do I or maybe it is a friend? I I I really never actually said anything to her about it. But you were gonna I feel like you were gonna say something, Craig. No? Okay.

Colette: 1:18:06

I'm I kind of want to go back to something you were saying, Nick, about um kind of being willing to let people change. Is that what you're saying? Um I'm I I'm curious about like how does that happen in the context of like long-term friendships? Like I was saying that I have a handful of people that no matter where my proximity is, we're still in relationship. Um I don't know, it's just I'm kind of curious from like a global perspective, but also from your individual perspective. Um, of like how have you how have your friendships endured you changing?

Nic: 1:18:53

Um it's an interesting thing for me because I have very few friendships that have endured that long. So it it took me time to realize. So I tell folks I had two friendships that were good enough growing up to survive the loss of proximity of high school. Um, and one of those ended because that friend committed suicide when I was in basic training. Oh wow. Um, and the other friend, um I I I joined the military, I lost contact with everybody. Right. I'm I'm 19, I'm in South Korea, I'm in Kuwait, I'm like, yeah, the world doesn't exist. Um I barely survived talking to my parents. That's the one connection. Um, and that one other good friend, we tried to reconnect. Um, I'm gonna say so 2006, that would have been seven years we'd seen each other. And I'm like, we got together. Oh, this was great, this was wonderful. It was like, you know, reconnecting, same old joke, same vibe, da-da-da. And anyone took a little while to realize, oh, well, that was fun, that was great, but that's it. Because we we were in such different places in life that that attempting to sort of revisit that moment would have been very difficult. Um I I had this conversation recently because just this past week, um, my wife told me um on Wednesday, hey, I'm going to grab dinner Saturday night with with Daniel. I said, Oh, cool. Who's Daniel?

Sam: 1:20:18

Yeah.

Nic: 1:20:18

She's oh, it's it's um this friend of mine from high school who I've never heard of before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, what is this concept of someone I haven't seen in in decades and and want to like meet up again with? Yeah. And I'm thinking about, oh, that's you know, that's it's just a flavor of relationship I'm I'm not familiar with. Um, but just sort of something I've gained over time is is allowing myself to say, okay, um this thing changes over time because I've one of the ways I've changed over time is sort of adopting leadership roles. Yeah. Um, because uh seven years ago, eight years ago, they'd say, Hey, do you want to ever be like a manager or whatever? Ugh, no. Yeah. Three years ago, hey, do you ever well, yeah, that's why I started my own business, right? Yeah. So kind of. And then nowadays it's like I just recently started a part-time job, and in the interview, he's like, You're amazing. You want to be a clinic director? I was like, maybe.

Colette: 1:21:10

Yeah.

Nic: 1:21:11

And surprise myself. But it eventually it was my relationship with myself of oh, okay, it's it's okay for me to want to fill this as a role, and it doesn't matter if I aspire to be this job, it can just be a job that I do. And I don't need um, I don't need this job to fulfill me. And also, I'm thinking similarly with my friendships. Okay, I have some friends who live in Seattle, and we're great friends, and we talk, but there's obvious boundaries based on distance. And I have friends here who exist within the context of where I know them, and then it it's okay for each of those relationships to be different and have different restrictions, yeah. And they just they are what they are. And oh, this friendship becomes closer, okay, cool. This friendship becomes less close. That's unfortunate, briefly, but it's only you know problematic if you don't have anything else anywhere else to kind of pour that energy into. But yeah, and same thing, right? Just having that experience more over time allows you to be more okay with it, and just again, accepting yourself as this fluid constellation of relationships and moments versus like I'm no longer who I was when I was 19. Oh my god. I was I always talking about that sort of like lack of deep connection being this um social media thing where I always say that um the one thing Facebook and social media are great at is um reminding you of who you used to be, yeah, and giving you a false sense of how much that matters. Yep. And and also giving you if you can just click a friend button, cool, I've got more friends. No, no, you've got a bunch of more folks to be friendly with. Yeah. But that's very different than like having having a connection that matters. So just gaining that perspective over time.

Craig: 1:22:58

I find my mind keeps going back to Nick's wonderful analogy. I find that intriguing, the the notion of um the thing you did with the arms, just that when you change, it's gonna initially feel uncomfortable. Because yeah, that that that there's so many analogies of that kind of thinking in terms of like sports. When you learn to do something correctly, it's not gonna feel right. And you and you're probably temporarily gonna be worse at it, whether it be a golf swing or a a bowling motion or a pitching motion or whatever it might be. Like let's say I'm learning how to pitch correctly at softball, and some experienced expert person is teaching no hold the ball this way and twist your arm this way and release it this way. Well, not only is it gonna feel uncomfortable to me, but I'm probably gonna be worse at it. I'm not gonna get the ball over the plate as well as just doing it the way I was always doing it. Yeah. But you need to step back and get worse at something in order to eventually get better at it by doing it the right way. And I wonder how closely that does apply to emotional things and relationship things. And you know, like if we really tried to make these positive changes in our life or things we're convinced would be positive changes, might we be worse at relationships temporarily until we get better at the healthier stuff and then in the long term be better at relationships. But do you have to take a step back to learn these emotional and interpersonal skills before you can move forward?

Colette: 1:24:29

Yeah. I would say yes. My best year of my life was uh preceded by one of the worst because I like systematically imploded at most of my closest relationships and sought a season of absolute loneliness. I went so aloneness that was sometimes colored by loneliness, but mostly colored by relief. Because it was like, okay, I finally like purged my life of these relationships that were really one-sided, really toxic, and um and sought relationship with myself. That's also not something we talked about, but we don't have time for that. Yeah. Um but I also see it whenever like I have friends right now who are uh starting to become parents. Oh, and like that's a massive shift. Like you're bringing a new person into your life that you then have this really intense relationship with, and everyone else in your life, some will just fall away and they deal with a lot of grief around that. But it's also like, well, you have to have friends in your life who are committed to sticking out this season of change and being willing to be reconfigured in your life as well. Like, are they willing to go to the grocery store with you when you need to go buy formula and diapers rather than go out and have coffee on a weekend? Um, and that sort of so it's like, yeah, that change is really uncomfortable and not everyone's willing to endure it in your life. But I think you need to, you know, not take that too personally as well. That when your life changes, it is gonna feel like painful and uh and uncomfortable. Uncomfortable is probably a better word. Um because you're learning a new way of being in the world.

Sam: 1:26:24

I mean, I would say you're 100% right. I I mean I'm going back to you know, something so like family of origin. I mean, I think all of us here can can uh you know stick with well uh connect with that because I think uh I don't even rem I think it was well within my I mean 30s probably when I would I was doing something and and I was like, oh that comes from my dad and I don't want to do that anymore, so I'm gonna try this a different way, but that didn't feel right, you know, and it's like it's amazing the the ruts you get in and you don't even know they're ruts. And and sometimes you think you're like, oh, I'm out of the rut, but you just transform the rut into something totally different. Um but I I think that's what that's probably one of the challenges with relationships. I and Nick said it too, is like I don't think in a lot of relationships, we at least you know, maybe when you're younger and I don't know, older as well, but you don't enter the relationship assuming it's going to breathe and change. You assume it's going to be pretty static, and you're gonna be pretty static. And that's what that would bring security and stability. Which but but that is f it's folly to think that. Uh because yeah, that because you're connected to and you are a living, breathing thing that changes all the time, whether you like it or not, you just have to accept that, like, oh, this like what you were saying uh Nick, it's like this is what it is today, and and not to get too married to that down the road or be shocked when it changes or when you need it to change or I don't know if that makes any sense. I don't think we we really we really I know I was never taught how to change well.

Colette: 1:28:18

No.

Sam: 1:28:18

Yeah or like how to put up with change or like how to be curious about change.

Nic: 1:28:24

That that's something I got only in recent years from therapy is just that notion of like it's it's foolish of me to assume that this thing that meets my needs now is going to meet my needs in that way for forever. Yeah.

Colette: 1:28:35

Yeah.

Nic: 1:28:36

It's just a just a an an unhealthy presumption of stasis that is never going to serve you.

Sam: 1:28:41

Well going back to the whole beginning of like work is like I that was one of the biggest problems I had is when it was uh probably in the last two years is I would go about my day as I normally would and I'm like oh I I didn't get as much done as I normally do or I didn't do that I couldn't do this and that. And for a while I just like really beat myself up for it. And it's like what is you know what's wrong with me? And um I remember somebody said wait a minute how how old are you again? And I was like you know I'm 50 and I was just like and first of all I assumed two things I forgot that like oh my body changes and you know whether no matter how well I take care of it it's going to produce less. And um but then also they were just like you're assuming that what the way you were doing it before was correct anyway. It's it it it and and and it was just it was a hard thing to to even accept that you you you're I think I I think a lot of people and maybe Craig because me and you are in the same you know sphere is like coming to grips with it's one thing with your mental or emotional state but when you you can't run away from your ball Colette knows too you can't run away being a physical therapist probably knows like bold bold assumption. Yeah your body changes you have no choice about what happens but um wow relationships are messed up why do we why do we do this thing again why don't we do this way by ourselves again I I had a I had a thought um that occurs to me going back quite a ways in our conversation because you asked a a good question um I'm sorry I was distracted by something that was going on here in the room.

Craig: 1:30:25

Now Sam asked the question about uh are the things about me that maybe have resulted in my not having as many relationships or as good relationships or as long lasting relationships as I otherwise might have had are they things that I that are that are good that I embrace that are like who the person I want to be or are they flaws are they neutral or whatever. And I thought about an interesting specific one and it's interesting because it's it's very ambiguous as to where I would classify it as because I I sort of embrace it. I sort of want to have this characteristic and I sort of see it as a flaw that's kept me from having better relationships. So I I guess I'm on the fence but I'm terrible and I I've long been aware of this I would have answered this question the same way 40 years ago but I'm terrible at anger at handling anger I don't like being around angry people I think it's very toxic and I have no tolerance for it. And it's not a mystery as to why I grew up in a household that had a lot of anger and negativity like that. And I always wanted to get away from it and I got away from it as soon as I could as soon as I was as it was practical for me to leave I I walked out and I was 17, never went back and I I don't want to return to that you know that feeling so um I have very little temper and once every several years I lose my temper and even that's usually not very severe. So it's it's very rare that I express anger towards someone I I'm a much more hyper rational you know calm reasonable person who wants to communicate and you know not uh just explode with emotion. But when I and I'm thinking especially of romantic relationships, oh, it would apply to other relationships as well but it comes up more often in romantic relationships. When I'm with a woman and the f the first time she loses her temper or that I see that side of her it almost always drives me away. Really and it just it just kills my interest because it's like I feel that's so disrespectful. You know if somebody's just being really negative toward me and and expressing anger and accusing me of things and and being irrational and not being willing to talk about it and just letting her emotions control how she's treating me it's like fuck you you know you don't don't disrespect me like that. You know I I just shut down. I just I don't want to be with that person anymore. And and that's definitely been a pattern my whole life is whether it happens a week after I meet her or a month or six months, almost always the first time I've had a significant fight with somebody was the end of the relationship because I just completely lost interest in the person. And and part of me wants to say well yeah because you you shouldn't put up with people treating you that way, disrespecting you that way and part of me wants to say no you have to learn to be more tolerant of that's just the side people have you know people express anger sometimes. It's not that big a deal you gotta let it roll off your back and because part of what I what I value about a relationship is a person being their genuine self.

Sam: 1:33:44

Yeah.

Craig: 1:33:44

And if a person in so I always enjoy the the initial period where you're both on your best behavior and feeding each other really well. But what happens usually is when people get comfortable in a relationship you know after a week or six months whatever it might be then they feel like they don't have to be that way anymore. They're not trying to impress anybody it's not a first date kind of thing. Yeah well now we're partners so now I can be the way I really am and in a way that's good. It's like well yeah I want to see the genuine person. I don't want somebody to be phony around me. On the other hand I hate when people are angry with me. So I guess the answer is I want you to be the genuine you but I don't want the genuine you to be a bitch. So that's what I have trouble dealing with. What if the real person has that side to them where they're just disrespectful, angry, mean people sometimes and they treat me poorly ought to learn to tolerate that? Or am I right in in refusing to tolerate that? So I I don't know. I mean I'm on the fence as to whether that's a flaw or not.

Colette: 1:34:46

Based off what you're saying, Craig I won't even call that anger. I would just call that meanness and you know uh toe in the line with abusiveness. Right. Because you can be angry without being disrespectful or awful at somebody. I that was something I've slowly had to learn. But I'm I'm right I've actually I think I might be that per that person that you're like avoidant of um because I used to have a way with words like I obviously have a way with word but in a way that's really negative and like tears somebody down. And that's what I think is like absolute so when I get angry I shut down because I don't ever want to treat somebody like that. And so now I'm learning how to express my anger without that and it's like a totally different conversation.

Sam: 1:35:33

It's hard. So hard it's funny I think I and not the we're not I'll I'll keep this veil but like I think I saw the last time you got angry.

Nic: 1:35:41

I told you about yeah I think I saw the last time let me tell you guys I've observed it he's the most rational kind calm angry person I've ever seen in my life and maybe it it's it's more of that is like because you have a good understanding of like that that meaningful difference between am I angry and how do I express that anger your system doesn't have that tolerance for the folks who can't constructively express that that anger mean is a good like tack like a tax or you know exploding vulnerabilities or that's where I think it gets mean.

Sam: 1:36:18

Yeah yeah that's mean for sure.

Craig: 1:36:20

But is it a flaw in the sense of like like Rick was saying about in a relationship where somebody kind of triggers you because it rem it reminds you of of negative things from your past. Yeah. You know this this person goes into the other room to sulk or whatever and that reminds me of when so and so in my life in the past did that it was a very negative experience for me. So now it's bringing so is that what I'm experiencing like when a woman is kind of bitchy in a way that's not that extreme, but it feels yeah more extreme to me than it really is because I come from a background of a lot of irrational anger that I absolutely hated growing up and wanted to separate myself from so I'm so am I overreacting when people are just regular angry in a way that you know oh wow man this was a the I should have made this a two parter.

Colette: 1:37:10

Yeah this was quite a robust conversation not such a in-depth uh quickie in the future well I didn't know that was my mistake I didn't know like two curious crews in one yeah this conversation hey it's hey they're paying for it it's never too late to make it a three parter yeah oh it is too late let me tell you I do think there needs to be a question about change on on the screen that's what I was thinking too the change part um because that's a that's a whole thing onto itself well I guess we should wrap it up.

Sam: 1:37:42

Yes but I appreciate uh I I had a thought but I'm gonna say it because I know we want to like we want to and like I want to talk to Craig some more because I have actually have a lot to say about that too. But um but we can continue this conversation we're gonna meet in person and talk about it some more but uh hopefully we can talk about it online or or or or what have you but I know I love this conversation and I hope you found it as fascinating and connecting as I did. So thank you to our curious conversation partners today Nick and and and Craig and Colette. I'm gonna make sure to put stuff in the show notes about them. Craig is actually a prolific writer and he has some wonderful things to share and uh I need to talk to you Nick because my yeah I'm I need to hire you for my broken body. So and if you need to hire Nick for your broken body uh it'll be in the show notes.

Colette: 1:38:35

So yeah thank you for letting your curiosity get the better of you today. We'll be back again next month uh with the next curious question. If you're interested in joining us in New Orleans at the Curious Crew you can find us on uh all the social media pages with just love greater New Orleans um and there's a little link tree for the Curious Crew meetup uh you can find us on the meetup app as well there's two meetings there's the Meet the Crew and then there's full on curious crew so come and meet some new people um we'll be back around the table again soon with another curious question and until then stay curious thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of the Curious Crew podcast if there's something or someone in this conversation that made you curious we want to include you in this conversation and there's a link for that in the show notes.

Sam: 1:39:28

If you want to pull up a chair in person we love to see you at our monthly gatherings. The link with dates, details and ways for you to RSAP are in the notes as well. You have questions or curious about starting a curious crew in your area shoot us an email which is found in our show notes. Thank you for letting your curiosity get the better of you today. We'll be back around the table again soon with another curious question. Until then stay curious