Learning Lately: Candy, Portfolios, and Grief Glitter

You can feel the moment a conversation stops performing and starts telling the truth. This one starts where they all do... at the table, laughing about childhood candy. And then the question lands: what are you learning right now about life, people, or yourself?

What follows is the kind of talk most of us only wish we had access to. Nic on building a life with room for all of who you are, so no single job or person has to carry everything. Rhys on grieving the version of yourself that needed everyone's approval. Sarah on deciding, young, what safety would look like... and then becoming it. Colette on the long road from surviving to actually living. And somewhere in there, a question about grief opens a door nobody expected to walk through.

We go to some tender places in this one, including mental health and thoughts of suicide. We went there because the table felt safe enough to. If you're carrying something heavy, you don't have to carry it alone... call or text 988 anytime, and you'll find more in the show notes.

We close with the newest part of our Curious Code... Gathering the Good, where each of us names what curiosity gave us. Perspective. Permission. Love. More people in our corner than we knew we had.

If this one stirred something in you, we want to hear it. There's a link in the show notes to share it, to send us the question you want the Krewe to sit with next, and to pull up a chair in person.

Come be curious with us.
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Gathering the Good... Things Worth Carrying Home
The good stuff doesn't have to stay at the table. A few of the books, ideas, and practices that came up, in case you want to wander into any of them yourself...

Reading

• Gullstruck Island (published as The Lost Conspiracy in the US) by Frances Hardinge
• Fly by Night by Frances Hardinge... yes, the one with the goose
• More about the author: franceshardinge.com

Ideas and frameworks worth a search

• Moral injury
• Foreboding joy (a concept explored by Brené Brown)
• The "grief glitter" metaphor... how grief never fully disappears, but you find less of it over time
• Saturn return
• Queer theory as a way of being in the world
• Freud's "death drive"
• Social Emotional Learning (SEL) in schools

Practices and therapies

• EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing)
• Somatic therapy... noticing what the body holds
• Inner child and reparenting work
• The Marie Kondo practice of offering gratitude before letting something go

Also referenced

• Viola Davis, on the long road to "becoming somebody"

If today's conversation brought up something heavy

• 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline... call or text 988, or visit 988lifeline.org
• Crisis Text Line... text HOME to 741741

You are not alone.

If this sparked something for you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review or text us through the link above with the question you want us to explore next.

Want to meet the Curious Krewe in person?  Here is your formal INVITATION.

Curious about all-things Curious Krewe?  All roads converge HERE.

Until then, Stay Curious!

Transcript

Welcome To The Curious Crew

Sam 0:06

Do you ever wish for a place where you can ask real questions without a fight? Do you ever want to sit with people who see the world differently than you and still feel connected? Do you ever crave a circle that listens more than it lectures and leaves you a little more human than when you arrived? If this is you, welcome to the Curious Crew Podcast. One honest question with many voices and with real connection. It's where we listen first and we practice curiosity with kindness and then become curious friends together. So without further ado, let's get curious.

Support Resources And 988

Sam 1:06

You know, we're grateful for that kind of courage at our tables. And if you're carrying something heavy right now, we want you to know you don't have to carry it alone. You can call or text 988 anytime. Uh resources are also uh in the show notes. So now let's get curious together.

Meet The Table And Guests

Sam 1:26

All right, we're back. And today's table is a good one. Uh I'm Sam, and joining as always with my I'm gonna try to do this right because we have something new. Coco hosts, Colette and Reese. And today we've got another uh actually two, there was uh one curious human, and then we had a surprise curious human, which is like bonus curious humans. Um I'm really glad to be here with uh we got returning guest Nick and brand new, fresh out of the water is Sarah. Hey, I'm making this up as we go. Come on. We're uh gonna do what we always do and start with something that has absolutely nothing to do with our main question. So, Reese,

Childhood Candy And Treats

Sam 2:06

you want to kick us off?

Rhys 2:07

I sure do. So I'm gonna start with my name, and my name is Reese. As Sam just said, nice. I use he or they pronouns and go ahead. Go ahead and uh say your name and what was your go-to candy and treat as a child, child, child. Oh, child, ooh, echoes. As the cocoa co-host, I felt that was necessary. Yeah, very good. Echoes. Starting with collect etc.

Colette 2:38

Oh, we're just like it volunteering people without their consent.

Sam 2:43

Well, technically that's voluntolding.

Colette 2:45

Just voluntolding me. Yeah, all right.

Rhys 2:48

Well, I'm gonna voluntole myself.

Colette 2:50

Okay, go for it.

Rhys 2:51

Mine was uh ice cream snickers. Ooh, nice. Wow. Tell me your young jumbo kit cat.

Sam 2:59

Let's do it. See, it's you skinny people.

Colette 3:02

Yeah, that's fucked up. I've never been able to afford two treats at once, even when I was a child.

Rhys 3:09

Oh, I'm not saying I did it all at once, but those are my favorite ones.

Sam 3:13

I mean, when we were little, ice cream snickers didn't even exist yet. No, no, we had to put Snickers in the freezer. Normal Snickers in the freezer.

Rhys 3:19

I know, but this ice cream Snickers was an ice cream candy bar.

Sam 3:23

Oh, I know.

Rhys 3:24

With vanilla ice cream, and it just like melted, but it was cold and so awesome.

Sam 3:28

Yeah, it was good. See, I personally didn't like its softness. I thought I needed to be harder, but that's my opinion.

Colette 3:36

Yeah, and I'm collating my pronouns are they and them. Uh my favorite treat was dum-dums. I was in a bunch of like every club I've ever been in. For some reason, the teacher always handed out dum-dums. Um, and I love the mystery ones. I know that's a weird uh thing, but like I love the mystery ones.

Sam 3:55

No, that tracks. What is that? I don't know those.

Colette 3:58

The wrapping, they they just have a like um a question mark wrapping all over them, so you don't know what's on the inside.

Sarah 4:04

Oh, like what is the river?

Colette 4:06

Yeah, all the dum-dums have different flavors.

Sam 4:08

Do they though?

Colette 4:09

They do, yes.

Sam 4:10

Okay.

Colette 4:10

They yes.

Sam 4:11

Is this like MM's no dum dumb conspiracy theories?

Colette 4:16

Legitimately, they're different colors, they have different flavors. And like if you look at the wrapping, it'll tell you what flavor it is.

Rhys 4:24

Yeah, they're tiny, they're really yummy.

Colette 4:25

Yeah, okay. My and my favorite flavor, which if I got it as a mystery, made my whole life, was root beer.

Sam 4:32

Oh.

Colette 4:33

So good.

Sam 4:34

I didn't know that even existed. I think it's Sarah's turn now. Yeah. You got now the volum told you.

Rhys 4:42

Yeah, you just got voluntary by the person you told me to volunteer.

Colette 4:45

Look, I'm just passing down generational abuse at this point given to me by Reese.

Sam 4:51

Oh, here we go. Wow, what is the rules part? Oh, yeah, we haven't got to those yet, so I guess she's that old. Yeah. What do you got, Sarah?

Sarah 4:59

So I do just want to add a small comment, which is the dum dum wrapper looks like if the Riddler had decided to design a dum dum wrapper which is covered in the water. Oh, really? Yeah. So just imagine that. It's really exciting and fun.

Sam 5:10

I feel like I don't know these now.

Colette 5:12

It was the mystery box of the millennial experience. Okay, okay. I'm gonna look at something. Just less interesting. It's not a toy get to eat it instead. I'm gonna- Actually, that's more interesting, let's be honest.

Nic 5:25

That's fair.

Sam 5:27

Anyone else?

Nic 5:28

It's Sarah.

Sarah 5:30

So I'm gonna say something that you will be very familiar with, I hope, Sam. Okay. As a sweet um, Mary Jane's.

Sam 5:39

You know, I've heard of them. I've never s actually tried it.

Sarah 5:42

They're from our grandparents' generation now. What is that?

Sam 5:46

Age?

Colette 5:49

How old do you think Sam is? Sam, it was around before you were born. How could you not have been exposed to this during your lifetime?

Sam 5:57

Well, to be fair, I didn't know my grandparents, so there's that. But like, no, those Mary Jane's, if I remember right, were kind of they were novelty candy by the time I was as a visibility.

Sarah 6:14

Um newspaper stand, and you can like accidentally buy the the the the mints that are actually just perfume and insane, or you could buy Mary Jane's.

Sam 6:25

Aren't you from like New York or Vermont though?

Sarah 6:28

Yeah. It's the Northeast. It's you Northeast. What is a Mary Jane? I have never heard of that. What is it? Okay, imagine like Taffy decided to um have a child with peanut butter. It's like peanut butter taffy, it's deeply sticky. It sticks to the roof of your mouth. It isn't near off as that's my second one I was gonna say. Bit of honey. You also go to your neighborhood. You also go to your neighborhood uh, you know, newspaper stands because that's where everything is. You pretend you have a sore throat to convince the adult that you're with to let you have a bit of honey.

Sam 7:03

Interesting.

Colette 7:04

I'm sorry, this sounds like a sensory nightmare. It's sticky and it's a big thing. It sticks to the roof of your mouth.

Sarah 7:09

It's like stickier than taffy. No, like Tootsie Rolls have nothing on this. It would take out your fillings if you had them. See that no.

Sam 7:16

See that, yeah.

Colette 7:16

I want all my teeth in my head.

Sam 7:18

Yeah, me too.

Colette 7:19

It's so good.

Sam 7:20

I I think I've tried maybe a knockoff of it. Now that you way that you describe it, I I think I've tried it.

Sarah 7:27

Yeah. I pity all of you for not being able to enjoy this thing.

Sam 7:31

Well, some of us have all of our teeth. So, Nick, what do you for those who can't see?

Rhys 7:37

I believe Sarah does chill.

Nic 7:39

Yes, that's true. So mine is an interesting one, and also it's one that has become more and more curious of a choice to me the further I get from it. So I'm sure all of us growing up had like some sort of like, this is like the well-known candy brand in our region or in our area, that sort of thing. Um, like like Russell Stover's one of them. There's lots like, you know, Midwest. Mine was a place called Ceres' candies up in Cannesburg, Pennsylvania. Okay. And they were they were known throughout Western PA, but they were also like five feet from my grandmother, my dad's mom's house. And so that was like every year for Easter, you get grandma gets you some candy from Ceres's, and she would always get us. They make these these either milk or dark chocolate filled Easter eggs.

Colette 8:21

Oh that sounds good.

Nic 8:25

Buckle up, buckle up, yeah. Sounds like so the Easter egg is probably the size of like a mini football, flat on the bottom because it's gotta sit in a package, you know. Good grief. And so I got one that was milk chocolate peanut butter, which means you had this egg shape that was about quarter inch thick of chocolate, and the entire rest of it was peanut butter. Wow.

Sarah 8:50

You have just sold me on this thing.

Nic 8:52

And I would like annihilate it in a weekend. Look back on that, I'm like, I I think of eating it now, and I'm like, ugh.

Colette 9:00

Yeah. But it would annihilate me in a weekend.

Sam 9:04

I wonder how many calories that even was, or how much sugar, or a bunch.

Nic 9:10

I mean, it will never top the time I thought it was a good idea to sit down after school and have a bowl of cool whip as a snack. That was a little wretched, but the the peanut butter egg was an odd fixation in in grade school. Wow. Yeah.

Colette 9:24

Eat a bowl of cool whip at the time.

Nic 9:26

The first and last time ever did that, yep. Yeah. It didn't say now.

Sam 9:30

Well, I've done the whole mixing bowl of cereal thing. That's that's a normal thing. Yeah. But like Sarah, I I and Nick Hinted at it too, it's like bit of honey was mine. Yeah. And now, see, I will say, as the as the senior person of the group, I feel like it's I feel like it's changed. It was softer when I was a kid. I f I swear it was softer. It was more like Tootsie Roll-ish. Yeah, it was soft. It wouldn't like I've I think I had tried one a while ago now, like probably five or ten years ago, just for old time's sake. And it was it was like a teeth breaking. I was like, this was not what I remember. Where I just must have had a like a steel jaw or something when I was a kid. But uh I love those. It because it is, I didn't, I never funny thing, that's what I thought honey tasted like until I tried real honey. And I was like, oh, that's not they're not the same thing at all. Plus, it has nuts in it, like little tiny micro like I think it's peanuts, if I remember right.

Nic 10:27

You know, same, I would just like to say that uh I think the listers probably won't appreciate there's nothing better in this world than four trumpets playing almost in unison.

Sam 10:34

Well, hopefully this will not you this will not be heard at all because of the magic of technology. But if it's here, it's like who else gets their um own backing music? Only the co and cocoa host. Yeah, coco, cocoa, host.

Colette 10:50

Not not almost in unison.

Nic 10:55

What'd you say?

Colette 10:56

He said almost in unison.

Nic 11:00

Well, hey. I noticed these things. It's the HD brain. I played Trump on Hose, okay, and I heard four Trumpets like nope nope nope nope.

Sam 11:06

Like, oh, you're so close. Well, to just so everybody could know, this is actually we've been um kind of wandering in the desert for uh for recording space. Literally. And um the last one was at my house, and now this one is actually in um uh a building. It's part of an organization called St. Charles Um Avenue of Uh Faith and Action. And they've they've wonderfully given us the space to do this and do some fun stuff. So we'll talk about it. But uh they've also they're also very generous with their space, and there's currently an entire band class of kids learning how to play their instruments, which I think, you know, I like it.

Rhys 11:43

It has character, and we're really thankful to this. Yeah, yeah.

Sam 11:46

Well, no, plus two, it's like that's nice. Just the the buildings getting used, and this is a good problem to have. I think absolutely. Well, let me see. Where are we at here? Oh, it's you, Reese.

Nic 11:58

Alrighty then.

Sam 12:00

Oh no, it's Colette.

Colette 12:02

We gotta get it together. Okay, is it my I think it is my turn now? Okay, we're warmed up, I guess.

Sarah 12:07

Yeah, we're pretty warmed up.

Colette 12:09

We're warmed up, we're goofy, we're slap happy. Uh, so let's get into why we're really here. Before

The Curious Code Ground Rules

Colette 12:14

we do, though, a quick word on how we do things around here in the crew. We keep this space safe, kind, and real, not with a bunch of rules, but with what we call the curious code.

Rhys 12:25

Respect beats being right always.

Sam 12:27

Yes, and we make room for fun because it helps us connect.

Colette 12:32

And we try to listen first, and hopefully more than we talk.

Rhys 12:36

And we always like to respond with curiosity and questions before completion.

Sam 12:41

And a new one, this is brand new. We're doing something called gathering the good. Leave with something worth carrying. We'll talk about more uh that more later.

Colette 12:50

But

The Big Question Lands

Colette 12:51

now that we have the code, let's get into the curious question voted upon by the curious crew, which is what's one thing you're currently learning about life, people, or yourself?

Sam 13:02

Ooh, big one. It is. They voted for it by leaps and bounds. Leaps and bounds. In a lot of ways, this I feel like I thought when they voted on this one, I was like, oh, this is easier than the love question was. But then the more I thought about it, I was like, oh no, it's actually not. For me anyway, it wasn't.

Colette 13:22

No, this feels harder than the love question.

Sam 13:24

Yeah.

Colette 13:26

Now for you and Nick, I see that.

Nic 13:28

I I I disagree only because I I didn't track it. I voted what the look pool, and then I saw that this was a question. I I like had an answer in mind immediately, which oh I mean makes it easy for me. I thought of something right away, but yeah, you know. So what did you think of?

Sam 13:44

Yeah, now that you know. Oh, geez.

Nic 13:46

Oh, here we go.

Nick On Multitudes And Expectations

Nic 13:48

So the the thing I'm learning by life people are myself. So this is a very recent um and I will say for for those who it bothers that this this is um with with the aid of of Chat GPT sometimes. Now I I will say I caveat it that I'm very fully aware that ChatGPT is just a way for me to air quotes externalize my conversations with myself. Yeah. Um my gosh, I do that all the time. But the yes, but it's so much better than trying to walk around the grocery store without moving my lips so nobody notices that I'm talking to myself. Yes.

Colette 14:17

It's it's an interactive journal, okay?

Nic 14:19

But the the the thing that I've been working on and learning is getting good at letting the things I I like or am passionate about or want to exist in multitudes so that I'm not asking of the people or environments in my life, I'm not asking of them things they're not capable of giving me. Oh.

Rhys 14:40

Oh my gosh, say more, please.

Nic 14:42

So yeah, this goes way back to past. So my career is a physical therapist. I don't have past jobs. Um, and this is how Colette knows me from when I worked with uh the Healthy Back program at Oshner. And I my autistic brain loves it because it's all it's here's a protocol, here's how you do, here's how you test people, here's how you train them, here's you do this on this visit, and this on this visit. I'm like, yeah. And then I look around and watch my coworkers. I'm like, nobody following the protocol. I'm just doing whatever, what is going on? And then I said, ooh, if I just complain to people loudly enough and frequently enough, they'll care as much as I do about it not going to protocol, and they'll oh, fire me. Okay. Oh, that actually happened. That's not the reason, but it's the reason I started Oh, wow. You know, interesting. Being being someone who might be a, you know, scoot you, scoot yourself because the door. And so I eventually figured out, okay, it was probably a matter of me asking something of my my job that it couldn't give me. So a recent development I have is like, so a job that I was doing PRN as needed, as in the medical world, um, offered me the opportunity to be a clinic director because they liked what they saw of me as an employee so much. I'm like, cool, that's great. Wouldn't go through legal because legal didn't like the conflict of me have my own business and being for them. That's fine. But I agreed to them to that because I said, you know, as recently as four years ago, I've been like management. And then two years ago, management, sure, that's why I started my own thing. And now it's like, sure, I can do that because I eventually figured out, oh, okay, I can go into this company and do the job they asked me to do the way they want it done, even if I don't agree with it. And it's not a judgment of me. I'm not less good of a clinician than I think I am because they're not asking me to be that good. This job isn't bad for not wanting me to be more of a clinician. I just have this job where I do this, and then I have my clinic where I do things the way I want to do them, and then I have improv teaching where I can, you know, let out that part of me. So it's it was it was learning that idea of I now have four technically different jobs because each of them is where a different part of my skill set lives, so that I don't wind up in a scenario where job A doesn't ask everything of me and it pisses me off because I have nowhere else for my other skills to go. My the skills I use get drowned in the ones I don't use, I'll like to say it. Same things with people, right? I have friends that live in Washington State, and they're great friends, but they can only be so much of a friend because distance and time and things like that. So I know better than to ask things of them that they can't be as friends, and so just getting good at having those multitudes and being okay with everyone being whoever they're able to be in my life and being okay with that, and just accepting that, you know, it's something I learned a long time ago, which is that um it is okay if something doesn't meet your expectation, and that's not proof that you need to change your expectation, it's proof that you need to reassess how hard you want to push for that expectation to be met. Interesting. And do you want to have it met somewhere else or that sort of thing?

Sam 17:49

You know, you you said if it's this is too personal, tell me it's none of my business. But you said you're you're you're autistic. So hashtag self-diagnosed. Yeah, well, well, no. Uh well, I'm just curious, like, well, when did you figure that out?

Nic 18:04

And in how I went. I've I've known for a very long time that I tell people I'm what's called an algorithmic thinker. The thing I do best is notice patterns. Okay. Like, oh, this keeps happening. Oh, this feels looks like this other thing, right? Connecting dots and making patterns, and and so it's it's also taken time to learn, like, okay, this is the thing that's common with folks who are somewhere on the autistic spectrum. I may have some of that. Gotcha. Um, and then also getting good at like, okay, how can I use this in my favor versus like it it being a bar that I trip over.

Sam 18:38

Because it sounded like you had these things that were is incongruent a wrong word to use? Or like not cohesive?

Nic 18:46

Subconscious almost, right?

Sam 18:48

Yeah. It's like was that it was just causing you a lot of what anxiety tension?

Nic 18:53

A lot of tension, yeah, because it it was it was very much trying to take things that weren't as I would like and drag them to being that, you know, no matter how heavy or or unlikely that was. And that meant you realizing, oh, that's not something you can do of something that doesn't want to be done that way.

Sam 19:11

How how old were you when you when you first uh had this like initial thought or realization rather?

Nic 19:18

35? So like a decade ago?

Sam 19:21

Wow.

Nic 19:22

And it's just been I I would imagine evolving. It it initially started as as the same behavior my father would always do, which is oh, I'm in this room with these morons, look at all these stupid people around me, they don't know what they're doing, and eventually you figure out, oh, okay, that's it's not all that helpful to look at people that way, even when you're trying to talk with a good tone of voice. Yeah. Um, and eventually learning, oh, what's what's actually going on is you know, I'm I'm noticing these things and not knowing how to adequately compartmentalize them or or make sense of them. And so it's just emotionally lashing out, oh, okay, I now understand this, I can sort of find a path that's different. Um again, like I'm I'm finding ways to patchwork together a work life or a free time life or a friend life that does all the things I need without asking everything of anyone or anything.

Rhys 20:17

I really like that. So you're saying like that was actually gonna be my thing I was gonna talk about. So this is really interesting. Oh. But you're saying you still are having your needs honored and met, but just in multiple avenues or this kind of portfolio life rather than putting it all dependent on one person or one career.

Nic 20:39

Yeah. And and and it was a big change because I I used to my go-to example is I would I would see all of the the like type A girls who got into PT graduate school by being the hyper forka focused, I've got a calendar with 15 different colored pencils to organize everything and keep it all collated and keep it all together, and I'm like, I can't do that. That would make life miserable. And I eventually realize, oh, okay, if I want to have a full life, it's about finding time for fun and then organization, not choosing fun organization.

Rhys 21:10

And then that was a nice stepping stone towards okay, now that I have that appreciation for bringing things together, I can and did you ever experience like shame in that process of like why the fuck can't I change this, or why why is my brain function this way, or maybe I just need to shift my expectations, or blah blah blah.

Nic 21:31

Shame only until like 38 or 39. Oh wow. So that's that's a long time, man. Oh, yeah. Well, and and it's it it took time to sort of it takes you a minute to get there, be like, okay, oh, this is all right, this is shame that I'm feeling. Where's this com oh okay? That's probably my dad's voice. Yeah. He was ever the perfectionist. So the the the famous story I tell folks was when I was in PT school, and first year we have like a dozen. Hands on practicum. You've got to demonstrate how to do manual must test must testing, just range of motion, all this stuff. And every time, um, so the rule at the school was you have to get a 70% to pass, and you have to pass 70% of the test on your first try. You only get so many retakes, and I burned through all my first semester because I had such test anxiety. And I had to like go in front of the school board and justify why they should not kick me out of the program. And here's my plan, I'm gonna go to therapy. And that's when going to therapy regularly started for me. And I'm like, oh, this is poor performance anxiety because growing up with my father, he wanted to be a better dad than his dad, so he's gonna teach me how to do things, but his way of teaching was here's how you do it, you do it. The instant you deviate from what I showed you, I'll just take back over and do it myself. Uh-huh. Oh, okay. So yeah, shame. Uh, because right, I'm a smart kid, why can't I figure it out right away? I'm I'm I'm I'm big brain. Why push on wall, not fall down? You know, yeah. It's my my favorite old metaphor of like I I was the guy I now talk about who was standing in front of this brick wall, so determined to push it over, fully unaware that he was standing in the field in front of a brick wall that's two feet wide. Oh, wow. That's a good that's a good analogy. Took me years to finally step back and go, oh, look at this big field, I can walk anywhere. Wow. Yeah.

Rhys 23:11

And what what shifted that changed your ability to reorganize?

Nic 23:17

Um honestly, probably it was it was a lot of little things, but the the tipping point was was doing EMDR therapy. Um, okay. Which which finally took me to that final level of I don't know if you guys have heard the phrase of like you you grew up to become the person you needed when you were little. Yep. And so my EMDR was literally that. It was me visualizing the old trauma, and it was me today showing up for me then and being the like the consoling, the guiding person, and and just sort of getting that resolution to all those past situations that air quotes were my fault, allowed me to kind of step into that new face.

Sam 23:51

Yeah, I've I've done some of that too. It's been surprisingly helpful. You you think it's kind of ridiculous at first.

Nic 24:00

I didn't excuse him.

Sam 24:02

I did. I was just like, this is ridiculous, and then it's just like, why am I crying? You know, it's like, what am I doing?

Nic 24:10

That's good.

Rhys 24:11

Yeah.

Sam 24:12

Cool.

Nic 24:13

So did I fully steal your thunder, Grace?

Rhys 24:16

No, I actually was happy that you brought that up because I was like still articulating my mind how I was gonna describe it, but you described it really

Reese On Approval And Shame

Rhys 24:23

well. I literally had that thought today where I uh had a run-in with my mom, which happens all the time, unfortunately, where I have a lot going on in my life, and I the best way I can describe it is that let's see. I'm choosing a life uh built of my passions that also where I need like multi, like I can't just choose a very organized corporate y job, and I can't just choose just complete creative freedom. I need to build out a life of both, and I've been trying to like narrow into one and never feel satisfying. I'm like, what is wrong with me? And um I had a corporate interview um with a hospital nearby, we'll just say it that way. And um and you know who you are. It didn't work out, and it but I was like relieved again that I didn't get that cor job, and but you know, my mom is all about financial security and money, and there's a lot of reasons for that. And we just had a run in this morning. I'm like, I'm excited, like my photography is really taking off, like, and it really is. Like, um, I have this new client that it's going really well with, and I can see where I want to go with my life, and there's just like always constant disappointment.

Nic 25:46

Do you feel like it's harder to achieve that sort of kind of quilt of multitudes when you're sort of at least I guess I could say emotionally beholden to someone that doesn't get quilting? I guess I'm phrasing. Oh. Yeah.

Rhys 26:00

Because it's even if she it's like it's just always in my mind, you know? Um, and it's had it's had to be a lot of like just fighting for myself emotionally, talking to myself positively, but I really think I would benefit from what you were saying, EMDR, and just nothing mentally is getting me to the point of like not needing her affirmation in some way.

Nic 26:26

Not even not even just reminding yourself that you're an amazing human being.

Rhys 26:28

Exactly. And even when I tell myself and I'm an amazing human being, there's still this like I'm not enoughness that happens. And I'm like, why is this constantly coming up? And I started journaling about it today, and it does, it was like, oh shit. Like I was like, why do I feel so upset when she doesn't approve? Okay, because and like literally the first thing that came up is like, because you suck. I'm like, whoa, as I was journaling, and it's like, why do you suck? Because you're gay. Why does it suck to be gay? Because gay is disgusting. Why is this gay? I'm like, holy shit. This is yeah, just for listeners, I am a gay funny ones person, not but this is the narrative that is tied to why I'm not enough with my with her. Wow. And it's it's hard to admit, but I was like, oh, all of this is quite tied to my identity and the her kind of having disappointment around my career is actually me feeling this trauma from coming out. Oh wow, yeah. I I was like, this is a very fascinating thing. So I'm learning about life with all of that. I started journaling about that all this morning. I'm learning to uh just let myself sit in the fact that that sucks. Yeah, yeah, and not try to like, and because normally what I'll do in my processing and journaling is like that sucks. And like, how do we improve it? How do we feel better about all this? What's the resilient stories, resilient story I'm gonna tell myself so I can move forward? And I just decided today I'm just gonna let myself sit and this kind of just sucks for a little while. Um, and because I think I've been running from like my own internal homophobia for a very long time. Um, and I need to let it unfold so that I can finally live like peacefully in my sexuality. That's tied very much to my like origin story.

Colette 28:26

Yeah. Well, when when Nick was talking, I heard grief. And when you now that you're talking, I hear grief. So I'm curious about what do you need to grieve.

Nic 28:41

I was gonna say the thing that makes me think of is we we we always think of grief at loss, but many flavors, so so my mind thinks of a version of Reese that is grieving, the loss of the version of you that needs that affirmation.

Colette 28:56

Or the the mother that you didn't that you don't have. Um and for Nick, the father that you didn't have.

Sam 29:02

Yeah.

Rhys 29:04

Yeah. Wait, so uh that's all interesting. So Nick, say that again.

Nic 29:09

The version I'm letting go of the version of me that didn't get so so you so you're letting you you're you are hopefully letting go of the version of yourself that needs that affirmation. Yes, but also at the same time, it's hard to do because you're grieving the loss of that version of yourself. And it's hard to like rewrite that internal narrative of now on a day-to-day basis. Oh, that version of me is isn't gone now. I have to update my internal narrative so I'm not telling myself that I'm that person and like mental gymnastics. Yeah.

Rhys 29:41

Yeah, it's exhausting.

Sarah 29:46

And also accepting like the mindset changes that'll come as your values change when you're no longer orienting them always towards what someone else's image of you is going to be. Which can also change relationship dynamics and with other people.

Sam 30:09

And grievings, probably.

Sarah 30:11

And people might even have grievances with children. Yeah.

Colette 30:18

Well, you were I as you were talking about um like being gay is sucks and it's bad and all of that. Um it also made me think of like queer theory. It's like queer isn't just a sexual identity or a gender identity, that it's like a way of life. And what you described, you know, having multiple outlets, what you and both and Nick both describe as like a very queer way of being in the world, that you're going against the norm. The norm being like your job is who you are, and this is your identity, and or and or your relationships define all of who you are.

Rhys 31:03

Yeah, right.

Colette 31:04

Um so queerness is not is just deviating from the norm and embracing that as a a positive truth. I think anyone can be queer. Even if your gender sexuality is um not of the LGBT persuasion. Yeah.

Sam 31:28

Because it's just what's out of the yeah, out of the what normative is or like off the beaten path. Yeah, off the beaten path. Yeah. Just a fluidity of expectation.

Colette 31:41

Yeah.

Rhys 31:42

Yeah. And I think uh I'll say one more thing and then I'll I'll pass the mic. Is like I think I've realized for my own life, the question was like, what have you learned about life? Uh is that the reason my life is so kind of chaotic right now is because I'm going through that massive change where I even look at my life like from three years ago, I was in a very monogamous relationship, about to be married, in a corporate position, very uh high-end like project manager, focused very much on like one singular track of getting things done. And now, like my life is completely opposite. Single portfolio lifestyle of creativity, all this various stuff. And it's like, oh, all of that was good, and it's not that that was bad, but it was definitely maybe more of um nurture versus nature. Like my true nature is actually what I'm starting to see now. It's just been an unlearning of a lot of uh nature things, and again, those nature things have served me, but perhaps maybe that's actually who I wasn't always truly at the core.

Colette 32:51

Yeah.

Rhys 32:52

Which is like we all hopefully go through that as a human journey, is like ultimately being who we really are versus like what we've kind of grown up thinking we were.

Sam 33:01

Yeah. This is where I want to ask. I don't want to ask a question, I just want to talk. But you can do it too.

Curiosity In Parenting And Freedom

Sam 33:09

Well, because it makes me uh the one really the whole reason I'm we're doing all of this curiosity stuff is where a lot of the way we a lot of our where our trauma is, a lot of where our dysfunction is, where a lot of where our disconnection is, is like of course family of origin. And and a lot of it, as you go back, of course, at least for me, because I've I have my own story similar to you guys, just in a different way, is uh, you know, but I'm on the other side of it of like I actually, you know, my parents are past, but like I have no no ill feelings, I have nothing but love, and and and I you I experienced some really bad things, but I know why they happened because it's like they got fed the same story, the same thing that I that they fed me. And in a lot of ways, it's not their fault. And and and then that's why I go back to like the curiosity piece, is like if we just asked questions, yeah, you know, it's like how how hard is it just to go, oh Reese colors a lot? I don't know, whatever you did. Did you what did you do uh when did your f creativity first happen?

Nic 34:29

Like did coloring actually doesn't kindergarten oh wow, I guess right.

Sam 34:33

But like, yeah, and it's just like instead of you know, probably like, oh, that's enough. Now you gotta do something serious, you know, do something that's actually gonna be productive, instead of going, oh, you really like that. Well, here, look what kind of coloring book you like? What kind of paints do you know like ninjas?

Rhys 34:46

Interesting.

Sam 34:46

Yeah, why do you like ninjas? Yeah, you know, and and you know, just letting that kind of you can still raise your kid and and not make them be what you want. Yeah, you know. Uh but then you just proliferate that across all things. Like, how much do we bring that into all of our dynamics and our relationships? You just Nick, you just talked about really it's all about expectations of what you had going into something. And it's like instead of just instead of going, no, this is what it is, going like, what is this? You see how this that question mark just like changes it a little bit. Yeah, but like just being curious as to why you know, just to question things instead of like, well, no, this is the way it needs to be.

Nic 35:26

Well, you know, it makes me wonder for you, Sam, because you're you're the one person at this table qualified to answer this question. Oh, pretty I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure is it because I'm old? No. Partly. Yeah. I'm wondering on the other side of that coin, do you have a hard time not trying to push and raise young wings into into becoming a certain something and being able to let them have the space to become whatever, versus you know, don't do that, do this, don't do that, do this. Well, try not to steer too much.

Sam 35:58

I've had a unique scenario of I had uh my son when I was 19, and so he was almost 14 years old when I had my daughter, who is now 18. Okay, you know, so there was a big and so I obviously I I tell my son this all the time. I'm like, I'm sorry. You know, I really didn't have any idea what I was doing.

Nic 36:26

And has he ever had a particular response to that?

Sam 36:28

Or well, he's like, I get it. You know, he's he's he's getting to the his I've I truly believe uh men like do not really even remotely have any kind of cognitive ability to process anything complex until 35. So I just really don't think so. Because I mean I'm telling you, most of the people I run into, it's like for some reason, it's like in their 30s, they they really start, and I I feel like um, yeah, anyways, uh but he's doing his old his thing too, unless like and and I'm watching it, and I'm like, I could come in and say something, but I'm not, and it's like and I I just tell him I I tell him the two things that I think are important all the time. I listen to him, but then I say, I love you and I'm proud of you, I love you and I'm proud of you, I love you, and I'm proud of you. And then my daughter, like when she came around, I I was I realized that oh, I can I can do things differently. And funny enough, that's it's funny you say about creativity because she was insanely creative, young. And we we let her explore that, but then of course, as she got older, she's like uh all of the other people in her life are like, you gotta do something serious, you know, that is this and that. And then so she goes to college for like marine biology. And I'm like, girl, you hate the water, you know. It's like I don't think they're required to get in the water. Uh listen, I doubt it, you know, that you're not gonna be around water. But um, but I told her, I was like, you know, go do like you like she loves like uh theater, especially theater design.

Colette 38:09

Oh, cool.

Sam 38:10

Yeah, yeah, set design. And I was like, do that. And it took her two to but she finally changed her major just this semester. It's like I'm doing it, I don't care. Then I was like, good. It's like, trust me, money you're gonna worry about money your whole life.

Nic 38:25

Just it will always, yeah, yeah, right.

Sam 38:28

There, and especially now, like there is no financial security for most people, and I mean most people, not even upper, upper class, middle class people. There's no way.

Nic 38:37

So do you remember the first fork in the road? Like the first time that you're raising your daughter, and you're like the instinct is to do it the same way you did with your son, but then instead I'm gonna do this other way. Like making a conscious choice to put to parent differently.

Sam 38:52

Yeah. I mean, I think it was um when it was when she was first born, I think. And uh and it had to do with something about uh and it was actually a complete happenstance. It was it was wasn't even something I was doing differently, it was how I was responding differently. Okay, and I remember I would get um angry real easy with my son, not that you know whatever lashed out, but it was I obviously wasn't you know, people can feel anger, you know, like changing a diaper, you know, just quick, short, abrupt. And I noticed I was playing with her more and I was and I was having fun with it, and she was being a wiggle worm and not being very helpful, but I was I was not dad joke at all. Thank you. Let let the dad joke, but she was being a little wiggle worm, and and so but I was having fun with it, and I was like, oh, this is not the same, and then I think that's where it started for me. Yeah, that's a good question. Made me think about that. Ooh, this got deep. Y'all, what's going on? Do we need to like hug real quick? I know this happens sometimes.

Rhys 39:57

I'm glad to hear that.

Grief Joy And Letting People Be

Rhys 39:59

Like, I think you go for both of y'all for sharing, because I feel like yeah, it can feel really lonely to feel like, am I the only person who struggles with this or like thinks these ways or various different things? And yeah.

Nic 40:12

Well, and it's also difficult because I've I feel like you know, last 10-15 years or so, we're we're getting better at being more aware that you're not the only one, but there's still that next step of okay, I'm aware I'm not the only one, but that awareness isn't enough. I need other like-minded to talk about it with because just that awareness isn't enough. I need to be able to commiserate about it, and yeah, it's that next layer that's still hard to get at this point.

Sam 40:37

Well, it's where you're gonna get somebody else's healing is going to turn into yours. That's what always, always, always happens.

Nic 40:48

Yeah, and then and it's it's just like I know I'll be driving home tonight from doing this, and I'll be like, huh, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Sam 40:56

I mean, that's why I love doing this. Like, I've I think I've I've I've I've realized there's things about me I didn't even know I was tense with just talking to other people, and then it made me go, what wow, I really need to think about this. And and it's been it's been a really I mean, yeah, it's it's painful. Yeah, it's not pleasant to change.

Nic 41:18

And you're you're right about the H35 thing. I think it I think it might be something that rhymes with toxic masculinity, maybe.

Rhys 41:24

Yeah, what's it perfectly rhymes with toxic masculinity?

Colette 41:30

Well, I don't know if it's just men because like in okay, I'm not an astrology person, but there is a concept from astrology that I find interesting, and it's when you're uh it's Saturn returns and it happens for everyone in like their late 20s, early 30s. Um, and it the idea is that your life gives you a lesson that you have to learn in order to move on from that lesson, but it's like a core essential lesson of your life that happens for people in their late 20s into their mid-30s. And you can fail it. I'm using air quotes, you can fail having your Saturn return in the sense that the rest of your life then gets hijacked by this lesson that you didn't learn.

Nic 42:13

Yeah, they made a movie about that.

Colette 42:15

So I think it's an ancient thing that all human people have been dealing with is like, how do I I learn the how do I learn the thing that's uh essential for me to learn and be on the path of becoming a becoming a full self.

Sam 42:33

See, and and sorry to speak in binary terms, but but like you know I'm always gonna challenge when you bring up gender, but yeah, well, but it's who I am. Well, but it's hard because like uh well, first of all, that's been primarily my experience. Yeah. But but also too, is like I and to be fair, of I never hear, and maybe it's because I don't have these kind of conversations, but I never hear about that kind of level of struggle in in the the female side of things as overtly and as I I guess distinctly as I do in the male side. That's all.

Sarah 43:03

And once again, I I'm I'm speaking in binaries, but it are femme presenting people allowed to be seen to struggle though with anything emotional without then being prescribed as hysterical.

Sam 43:15

No, that that brings up something. Yep.

Colette 43:19

Out here dropping feminist truth bombs, Sarah.

Sam 43:23

Well, no, I think well, an earlier conversation we had kind of was similar along that vein, I think. Yeah. I never yeah, that's true. And you but see, I s the same thing applies to to men though.

Colette 43:37

Yeah, I just don't think that's uh like yeah, I don't think humans w want to see each other struggle, you know? Yeah. Um I don't know if there's just this veneer of toxic positivity that spans the the the humans the the the life cycle of all humanity uh from the end of to the end of time. Um that like That we want to want to present our best self so that our people don't eject us from the community. It's a survival instinct. You know, I need to make myself as palatable and uh comfortable a be around as possible so that I don't get ejected. Um, it's a it's a survival instinct, I think.

Sam 44:20

No, that's good. You're right. I wonder, but oh go ahead. Go ahead.

Rhys 44:25

No, I was just gonna say that like that you're saying because as I was journaling back to the things I was talking about earlier, I have a very big tendency to audit everything I say or uh say or think. And then I like have a tendency to like even talk to myself and be like even say what I actually like want to say to make it feel more aligned on the inside. Yeah, and I I decided today, like with everything I've been thinking about, I go I'm not auditing myself anymore. Like I'm so exhausted and fucking tired of auditing every thought and every behavior to fit a moral truth. I like air quotes.

Nic 45:03

Like I don't even especially because that's not you auditing you. Yeah. Oh, let's say more. Yeah, that's all the ways you've been usually. Yeah, as they as they always say, like you know, those voices in your head aren't yours. You didn't grow up with them. They were put there by by mom, by dad, by insert authority figure. So all of all of the negative talk is not you auditing yourself, it is those those voices you carry over the years.

Rhys 45:29

Oh my god, thank you for saying that. Because I, until just this moment, have always thought it was me. Just being like really effing hard on myself.

Nic 45:36

Because I I've I know the same. It's like every time I do I do the I'm like, yep, sounds exactly like my father. I and I I know the instant it starts bubbling up where it's coming from. Interesting.

Sam 45:50

Sarah. You have something to say. I really hope we can fix this. No, no, the the music, not you. It's not you.

Sarah 46:04

Oh god, that was a bad timing. Colette, could you fix Sarah, please?

Sam 46:13

Just as Nick was talking about like the negative critical voices.

Nic 46:17

I hope it's turns out the voice in Sarah's head is saying on this.

Sarah 46:21

Actually. So sorry.

Sam 46:26

What's that?

Sarah 46:27

Is it your perception of them that people are much more complex than we also often see? Not to like justify, but to kind of bridge your two with Sam's own curiosity. Yeah. There's much that we can't see for the reason why people behave as they are, but we've internalized the portions they show us most readily. Yeah. These are the voices we hear. Or sorry to then say it that way as a statement, but what do you think about this?

Colette 46:53

Yeah, very good. This is straight up been my experience with my parents because like I've had some really amazing conversation with my parents about that have been really healing, and I think that's a real gift that I've had is to say, like, this is how I've experienced you, and they are just gobsmacked that I internalize things the way that I did. And um both of them like to tears realizing like I never wanted you to feel this way. Cause like what good parent wants their kid to feel like a piece of shit, you know? Um and what a gift to have that it's like, and now I can kind of audit all of those thoughts as like okay, that probably comes from my parents, and I know for a fact because they have told me they don't, that's not the intended effect that was meant to be happening, you know.

Rhys 47:50

Um that's that is conhealing. That's great that you've had that experience.

Colette 47:54

Yeah, so I always like hope that for other people that um they get brave enough to have the conversation and that their parents are brave enough to admit they were wrong.

Nic 48:05

You know, agreed because I had to do the opposite of like knowing my whole adult life, like, okay, this would be a cool conversation to have. But I know my parents don't possess the emotional maturity to have it. So it it just became a process of as I told many therapists, like they say, I'm so impressed that you're not mad at your parents. And I'm like, Well, sure, but I I benefit in no way from holding a grudge against them for not being someone they weren't capable of being. Yeah, like where does that get me or them? And so I've told that many times, like my my mother is epically apologetic for years and decades for it's her fault she put me in the army and all the da-da-da-da. And I'm like, you know, it's it's fine. You you can you can stop apologizing for a thing I forgave you for 25, 30 years ago.

Colette 48:51

But it's well, and you can kind of get there if you know your parents' values well enough. And it sounds like you do understand uh your your parents' values, like what was important to them, so you can kind of filter it through that in some way, I would think.

Nic 49:04

Yeah, and and it's it's having that knowledge, like you said, of of just and and not just the other people around you, but like that your entire life is just the percentage of the universe you're capable of perceiving right then and there. And uh as I as I'm tell all the folks who come to me because I'm a therapist, because yeah, yeah. I'd said, like, look, you know, your entire life is just the stories you're telling you about what's going on. Make yourself the hero for once.

Sam 49:29

Yeah. No. That's good. You need to get that on a t-shirt, bro. I've tried, it really doesn't fit as well as you think. Yeah, you're probably right.

Nic 49:38

You're probably right.

Rhys 49:39

It's you know, I like I love that idea, and make this yourself the hero of your own life. It's hard to do that alone. I feel like yeah, like you do need feedback.

Colette 49:52

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. For me, my therapist recent if uh sometime in the last like six months was like, so where did all this confidence come from? Oh is that an insult or a and I just told her, I was like, I don't know, I just I I decided to start um believing the good things that people had to say about me. I'm just like, why would why why is my internal monologue always fucking fighting with my friends? I love them, you know? Oh um, and so yeah, for me, the the biggest turnaround has been that I have a community of people who have amazing things to say about me. And the more you're around those kind of folks, the more you start to believe them. Yeah. Um, because they really can drown out that inner monologue if you are willing to not believe it. You you do have to put that inner monologue on uh like take it to court.

Sam 50:45

Do you think part of that though, of that resistance to it is more self-protective? Because um maybe you I mean, it's not a uncommon thing to to for people to protect themselves and be negative because they're afraid of feeling good because it'll get taken away from them. You see what I'm saying?

Colette 51:07

Foreboding joy, yeah. Oh, that's called foreboding joy. Yeah. For me, well, yeah, I've I've had joy taken away. Um, and I'll have it taken away again. I'd rather have joy once in my lifetime than never have it at all.

Sam 51:22

Well, and it's even uh it's kind of a silly expectation that you're supposed to be joyful and happy all the time.

Colette 51:32

That's not that's not what the human experience is.

Sam 51:34

No, uh you can want that.

Rhys 51:36

Yeah, you can want it. At least my life experience is like 80% of it is hard and difficult, and yeah.

Nic 51:43

It always makes me think think back to the grief we talked about earlier. Because my go-to example is so my wife and I have both lost our fathers within the last five years. And just first with like me protecting her from it and then me knowing it's coming, me expecting it, just that that sort of gaggle of folks around you now who are like, You good yet? You done grieving? Oh you back to normal now? Alright, you've you've been sad. And just like trying to like just get your expectations with you. I don't care if you're uncomfortable around me when I'm grieving. I don't care if that like this emoting makes you uncomfortable by I'm gonna go like get through my experience, and then if you feel like being empathetic letter, cool, but until then fuck off is what I say to those people.

Colette 52:32

I have the outright when I've been grieving and I gotten a message like that from somebody, I'm like, do you want to remain in my life? Because you're on thin fucking ice, buddy.

Sam 52:41

Yeah. Um well no, I actually yeah. I mean, it's been 11 years for my parents. And uh actually this this past May, what my May 2nd's my mom's birthday, May 3rd is her day of passing. And and then of course the next weekend's freaking Mother's Day. And I'm just like FU universe. But it was but it's like out of nowhere, it just hit me. Like, and I was really depressed and sad. And and yeah, it was I actually had to have a conversation with a few folks because it was they were getting a little annoyed with it, and I was like, I'm allowed to feel what I want to feel.

Nic 53:25

Have you ever heard the story about uh grief glitter? No.

Rhys 53:29

Grief glitter?

Nic 53:31

They they say that grief is like glitter. Initially, you open the envelope and there's a ton of it and you sweep it up, and then a few weeks later you find another little pile and you sweep it up, and then a few months later you find a couple more flecks and you sweep it up, and you pretty much never stop finding glitter, but over time you find less of it, finding it bothers you less, and you you kind of accept it and deal with it.

Sam 53:52

Oh, that's that's a that's beautiful. I like that. Totally originally my thought. Really? Well, you know that you know that uh they also call glitter the herpes of the um craft works.

Colette 54:03

We were doing so well, and grief is the herpes of the human experience.

Sam 54:08

I would say it's actually a lovely, it's a lovely growth experience if you let it happen that way.

What Sits Under Grief

Rhys 54:14

Uh what do y'all find when you're uh like at your lowest and you're grieving? What is the feeling you feel? What do you feel? Like at the bottom of grief. I know this wasn't the cure.

Sam 54:29

Mine is always regret.

Rhys 54:31

Oh, really interesting.

Sam 54:32

Yeah, mine's always regret.

Rhys 54:34

Always like even if you lose somebody in your life, it's regret.

Sam 54:40

Yep, because I I have a hard time, I really have a hard time not seeing both sides of things. And you know, as several of my friends point out to me many times, is that uh I tend to make I tend to hyper focus on my negative, my part of it. And um and so I and I think the regret is this like uh you know I can't control what they did, but like I regret what I did, and that that's the grief in that. I mean, that's the best way I can describe it is regret for me.

Nic 55:16

Gratitude. Oh, you're so so no no, so um pretty things. So so one is is in that grief having having gratitude to myself that I've gotten to a point where I feel comfortable like letting myself sit and feel the emotion. And if I if it's such strong grief I need to cry, cool, let it happen, let the emotion happen. So I'm not sitting there a week later going, wow, why do I still feel like shit? Gosh, I don't know, and and just also trying to turn it into like I've I've it's come from like the Marie Kondo stuff, like getting rid of things, just like having having gratitude for what it was, and like giving an opportunity to like, oh, let that feeling in, let myself feel it, and then because I've done that, give myself the opportunity to feel something positive to kind of balance myself out.

Rhys 56:10

Sarah, what are you gesturing?

Nic 56:13

Was that just she was was she just vanuiting my my commentary?

Rhys 56:16

It was nice.

Sarah 56:17

I don't know what it was. I mean, I agree with the gratitude. For me, it's always a multitude of emotions. Um, whenever we're screaming, the people or things lost in life. Oh yeah, I have to get close to the mic.

Sam 56:30

There you go.

Nic 56:33

You have to get close, but you don't have to ASMR. It's okay.

Sam 56:36

Would you think there's like one that bubbles up the most for you though?

Sarah 56:40

It's always a wave of all the emotions, whether it's anger, frustration, or joy, or sorrow, or loss, or gratitude, or all of it. Every relationship that I've had and everything that I've lost, but also gained has always been just a lot. Associating with the largeness of it.

Sam 57:00

Have you always experienced it like that?

Sarah 57:03

So far, yes.

Sam 57:05

Really? Interesting.

Sarah 57:07

I don't know, but the people I've lost and the things I've lost have always been multifaceted and complicated.

Sam 57:16

As they always are.

Sarah 57:18

I would expect for most, I hope.

Sam 57:20

Yeah. I think we try to simplify things m more than they are. Probably because of protection.

Sarah 57:29

I prefer to assume complexity from people and queerness from everyone.

Rhys 57:35

I I love that perspective. I really appreciate that.

Sam 57:39

Well, what do you what are you feeling? What are you feeling with that?

Rhys 57:43

Um reason asked a question.

Nic 57:47

Jeez, yeah.

Rhys 57:48

No, I know it. I just I'm actually, it's funny. I'm having this in motion again. I'm I'm hesitant because I know mine is actually really God related. Okay. Um I don't know, like, even with what I was experiencing today, like Nick, you articulated really well that and Encollette, like some grieving perhaps, of who I've been in this narrative of like hurt and feelings of rejection um and like ready to move on from that, I think, is like just a very cool connection with God. A very like sense of God is here, God is real, God is present with me, and like I'm just like completely loved by this divine father presence, whatever it might be. Um, and it's also kind of like a um, I can feel a cool, edgy version of myself that maybe is like coming to be. And I'm like, I like that version.

Sam 58:57

You mean a version that is fully loved and accepts it?

Rhys 59:01

Maybe that's what it is. Fully loved and accepted, and like isn't, yeah, isn't so worried about what everybody's thinking. And it feels really good.

Sam 59:12

Uh oh, that's great.

Rhys 59:14

Yeah, and I love that feeling because I feel like that's when I feel closest to that like liminal space or that thin veil, as they say, or like that. I think that we were talking yesterday, Sam and I, about like Judaism, and like you know, um, that's when I feel most like Christian at heart. And um I know that like as a younger person, like maybe people hear, oh, young person who likes Christ, what yeah. Um, but that's where I feel like wait, no, I am truly like Christian in that way. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that relationship. But I feel like it's a mix of it's not necessarily religion, but if it were to be religion, it's a cool mix of Judaism and Christianity. Oh, yeah. And maybe probably some Buddhism in there.

Sam 1:00:01

As it should. That's

Colette On Being Somebody

Sam 1:00:04

good.

Colette 1:00:04

What about I actually want to answer this because it'll lean into my answer to this question. And at the bottom of my grief, which I feel like I've experienced off and on my whole life, uh, but definitely as a child. Um, well, first of all, I want to caveat all of this with saying that I've been told by many a friend before I moved to New Orleans, because this is a totally different me and chapter in my life that y'all have experienced, is that I'm a person who abides with sadness very easily. And that has definitely been a part of my experience. Um, I think that's the the transition uh in my early 30s was towards a move away from always abiding with sadness. I think I had made it like a part of my personality and identity. Um, but underneath all of that, I'll never forget when I was in clinical pastoral education, my my like third or fourth unit, and um I was suicidal and I was working with other people who were suicidal. No one knew that I was suicidal, no one, everyone was too scared to ask. I think everyone knew, and everyone's too fucking scared to ask. And uh, I was really trying to talk this this patient out of being suicidal, and I I did a a case study on it, a verbatim on it, and presented it to my group. And they were like, you really wanted to like drag this guy to some hope, uh, to some optimism. And I said, I think I would be failing him and myself if I didn't try to cling to some sort of hope and optimism. Um, I don't think I was right in trying to drag somebody to something they weren't ready for, but that has been the way I've survived this life is to always believe um that there's more. There's something else, there's always been something worth living for. Um I was and I was listening just this week to um Viola Davis, she had this acceptance speech where she talks about uh she describes hell as um when who you are meets who you could have become. And and then later in the speech she says, I just always wanted to be somebody.

Sam 1:02:31

Oh, as she's standing up and giving a commencement speech.

Colette 1:02:34

Yeah, she's you know, at the height of her success. And uh I felt that I'm like that's uh since I've been, you know, so something I'm relearning, it's just kind of spiraling into a new phase, um, is that I don't need to prove myself to anybody, um, least of all myself. So I had my boss, I was kind of spinning out, um, and she says to me, What are you trying to prove and who are you trying to prove it to? Oh wow. And in that, I was like, I was really struggling with that question because I was like, and it kind of it sent me on a deeper spiral, but in a good way, and I realized I'm not trying to prove myself to anybody but me.

Sam 1:03:24

Oh wow.

Colette 1:03:25

To that little me who thought that I would be somebody. Wow. Is that I would prove to myself that I was somebody. Um and so like, yeah, and in all of my grief, that's been the common denominator, and and not just grief, but like a major motivating factor in my life is I I want to prove to myself that I want to be somebody, that I'm gonna that I'm somebody. And the fucked up thing is I am.

Sam 1:04:03

Yeah.

Colette 1:04:04

Um and you know, work with the therapist and all of that about the why I think or why sometimes that ends up being like I have to do certain things um or be perfect in such a way, um to be successful in a certain way. And I uh you know, I think there's sure there's messages I picked up as a kid, but at the end of the day, it comes down to that little kid who just wanted to be somebody.

Sam 1:04:37

Yeah.

Nic 1:04:38

Yeah.

Sam 1:04:39

And you are. Yeah. Yeah. You just need to figure it, you just need to accept it, I guess. Or not accept, or just don't care about it.

Colette 1:04:48

I don't, I I I think it's it's a it's a non-thing. I think it came back up because transitions bring back old old habits and behavior. I'm in a new role. I've it's been 10 months, but that's not that long. Um, it's a massively stressive job with people constantly questioning my decisions. Um and it has a big impact. And I don't I don't want to fuck up this this shot that I have. But the reality is that even if I do, it doesn't determine my worth. Um, because I will, I will fuck up. If for anybody with from with ACP listening, I will fuck up. And I'm okay with that. Are you? You know? Yeah.

Sam 1:05:37

Um shouldn't we all be?

Colette 1:05:39

Shouldn't we all be? Yeah. Uh we're like deeply freaking human. And um, so that's um that's part of the the learning, is but that realization that it's that kid that was my biggest thing. I like that. Um, that it was just it was me. Um and It's been my survival. Uh the thing that's helped me survive this life is that internal motivation to be somebody. I don't need that anymore. Because I'm not suicidal anymore. I'm not depressed anymore. Um, I'm yeah, I'm struggling with with some cognitive stuff, not mental health stuff, just like straight up. Sometimes I can't read, sometimes I can't focus. Actually, a lot more often than not. And um and that's those have been pretty big parts of my life and person uh and how I occupy the world. So if it feels like a loss, but it's not gone, it's just uh temporarily on hiatus because there's it's too fucking much right now. Yeah. You know, so um I I I I know that's why it's coming back is because transition brings again brings back the things that we always deal with. Yeah. Um that we we we just kind of spiral down into them until we die.

Sam 1:07:03

Yeah.

Suicidality And Moral Injury

Nic 1:07:04

So I I want to preface a question with a question. Oh does does everybody here at the table have the bandwidth for me to ask a bit of a dark question?

Sarah 1:07:11

Sure.

Nic 1:07:12

I mean, I do. I just talked about being suicidal. So I'm gonna preface that question with two statements. So, first of all, it just finally now dawned on me. Oh, wait, my mom's gonna listen to this podcast. So hi, mom, love you, I promise. I swear, yeah, I need to I love you, mommy and mommy pressure sometimes. It's got to be second of all, um, you know, they talk about like being that dude, right? Capital, capital T, capital D, right? Like when you get to be somebody. And I want to say to Colette and Therese, you know that you've been somebody since before anybody knew who the fuck you were. Accept that.

Rhys 1:07:44

I don't know how to accept that. I would love to hear more.

Nic 1:07:46

But I'm wondering whether or not anyone else at the table ever attempted suicide. Oh. Or if it's just me.

Sam 1:07:54

I I haven't. I've I've uh tried to clarify uh for there was two things for me. It's like I wanted to die. Yeah. I didn't want to live. But I didn't but I didn't feel compelled to so you're passively suicidal, is what that's called.

Colette 1:08:11

Is that what it's called? Yeah.

Sam 1:08:12

Yeah. But it's like it's for me that was more just like I'm just over this shit.

Sarah 1:08:17

You weren't a man with a plan.

Sam 1:08:18

Was it what's that?

Sarah 1:08:19

You weren't a man with a plan.

Sam 1:08:21

Oh, okay. Yeah. So I guess, I guess point five for me.

Nic 1:08:24

I I I just thought of it because I I feel like it would that was if I think back, it was it would that was like day one of me failing to start stop being my father's son. Because it's it's seared in my brain that I did what I did. Fortunately for me, I did a terrible job, as as you can see. I'm I'm sitting here. Um, but it's seared in my brain because my mom was a wreck and my dad was furious because he was certain that I just did it to get a reaction out of her. And he came to me and said, Hey, I guess what? I guess it's time to do a better time to start but doing a better job living or a better job dying. Wow.

Colette 1:09:03

Ouch. Holy fuck, that's so fucked up.

Nic 1:09:06

Yeah. Just barely top five most fucked up things you did.

Colette 1:09:11

What stopped me was my cat Jenkins. Um and and that that belief that, you know, it it it can get better. It's bad now. It can get worse, but you're gonna survive through it. Um And that was a big, big turning point in my life, for sure, for sure.

Nic 1:09:42

Thank you everyone for being patient while I'm doing that. Well, I'm thank you.

Sam 1:09:46

Well, not to do the gathering to good early, but I've never heard of that term, the passive suicidal. And and it makes me wonder now because I can't imagine every single person then has felt something like that.

Colette 1:09:59

Absolutely.

Sam 1:09:59

Like every single person.

Colette 1:10:01

Yeah. You know, Freud called it the death in instinct. Really? We all have an instinct to die. Um so early in psych yeah, psychologists consider yeah, interesting. But for me, yeah, I I I would say I was passively suicidal most of my life. Just living was hard. And when living's that hard, um hope is is what you need. Yeah. So that's of course why I cling cling to it. But um it wasn't until after my brother died that it got active. Yeah, and because of regret. Um regret has been a good friend of my grief. Um and it wasn't until I learned about the term moral injury that I realized that was part of it. That I wasn't that I didn't live, you know, that I didn't act in congruence with my um integrity with who I am or who I, you know, being a protector, that was my identity. I wasn't able to protect protect my brother from dying like he drowned in front of me. Um, and so um that was that was why I was actively suicidal. Yeah. But um the the turning point for me in that was honestly I don't I don't even know if there was a moment in time again, it c it kind of came down to enough people told me it wasn't my fault that I started to finally fucking believe them. Um I think that was a good part of it.

Sam 1:11:38

Yeah.

Learning To Feel Feelings

Sam 1:11:41

Well, I'm I I you know, d I'm gonna do the same thing collected because I think I can answer the question by dovetailing off all this. Because um, you know, I I I it's funny because uh I've I've I think I've spent a lot of time of my life trying to understand people, like life, and then uh both of those, but I spent uh not as much time as I thought about myself, you know, and that's why it's interesting how do I say this for a lot of ways I don't think I even felt like emotions like people did. And uh, and for the last probably five years, in a lot I feel like I've discovered them for myself, and and it's it it sucks because I'm just like for the people like my wife, or uh you know, I I you know I think Colette is always very good at expressing emotion, it's like you guys do this all the time, you know.

Colette 1:12:54

No, I don't do this all the time. I do this with you because you're my best fucking friend, Jelcom.

Nic 1:13:00

Okay, but still, it's just like to feel this all the time. I'm the same. The therapy for me was was learning how to feel my feelings instead of outthink them.

Sam 1:13:08

Yeah, and it's just like and when you said Reese about sitting somewhere, that has been that's my current thing of dislike uh like I cannot sit there, yeah. Because it's like well, because you you gotta do something, like you just don't sit there, you know, and but it's like ultimately, yeah. Like that with let's say, for example, the grief I was feeling about my mom, I did realize I was like, why am I trying to there's nothing I'm gonna do to fix this, right? Like zero. Uh and uh other than like and me realizing too the grief is is almost like how I discovered about how anger anger was my presenting emotion for everything. If I if I if I liked you, I was angry. If I didn't like you, I was angry. If I you know, yeah, hello.

Colette 1:14:03

Sarah's leaning in right next to it.

Sam 1:14:05

Yeah, and uh, but then I started to when I've uh discovered that like oh anger is just like really a surface emotion, uh-huh. You know, it's it's not even remotely what's going on. And when you start peeling that back, and you're just like, oh, oh, oh, oh, and all these different feelings, and and and that's when when I got to grief, it was you know another oh thing, but it's like, oh, I have grief because I I love my mom and I miss her, and it's like, oh, then actually I feel really I this is all coming out of an amazingly really good emotion, and so of course I should be sad, yeah, you know, and and be grieving. It's like because I miss my mom, and like and and I think of all the I've actually done some EDMR kind of things where uh I have the pictures, I actually not to get too far into it, there there's actually three versions of me now I have in my head that I have to talk, you know, work through and acknowledge who they are. And then uh it was actually that weekend what got me through it is I had to sit down and visualize my mom coming in there and and holding us all. And and and and that once that happened, I was like, oh, I feel so much better now. And but it's just like the power of those things doing that, but yeah, just really understanding my emotions and like what they are, and then trying to feel them and and while also trying to be a functional human being, which is like I I don't know how people do it. I really don't. How do you guys do it, or do you do it, or you do fake how do you fake it?

Colette 1:15:50

How do you feel emotions?

Rhys 1:15:51

Is that what you're no feel emotions and still function? Oh, I don't I've gotten to the point where I don't know how to function without feeling them. See, wow, because I used to bottle it so much, or like um Nick was saying, mental gymnastics to outthink how I felt. And honestly, I brought so much anxiety that I got to the point of so much anxiety and deep depression that I couldn't keep doing it like that. So that and transition has uh helped me a lot too, gender transition of like um if I didn't go the route that I've chosen to go in transition, I probably would have been suicidal. And so I was like, I have to change this. And so this physical, mental, spiritual change is forcing a new approach. And now it's like I can't imagine it's almost like learning to make work working out a healthy part of your life. It's like I okay, I'm gonna go to the gym, okay, and you have to like just keep doing it and doing it and doing it, it becomes a muscle to be able to sit in your emotion, but it's always uncomfortable. Yeah, I guess maybe it's like okay with it being uncomfortable, but like the only the the alternative to that is anxiety, at least in my experience.

Sam 1:17:07

But when people say sitting in emotion, is it is there it's see, I still feel there's an action.

Sarah 1:17:13

Sitting at a beach, you watch a wave come, you get completely bowled over, you feel the water all around you, you see all the sand and the thick castles and things that you built around you start to crumble and wash away, and then they go away and you rebuild, and you know there'll be another wave that'll come and you'll watch it come and you'll sit in it and you'll wait. And it'll pass. Or you can swim deeper into it if you need to swim deeper into it, or you can walk away and know that there will still be a wave waiting for you when you come back.

Nic 1:17:41

And for me, it was it was in part sort of discovering accidentally over time that like doing the work of letting myself feel the emotion and letting it pass and letting the waves happened, sort of created not to get too woo-woo about it, but sort of created space for me to emit my actual energy that wound up attracting people to me. And like, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. When I actually let myself feel and sort of become my full embodied self, people want to be around me more. Maybe I should do that more often.

Rhys 1:18:16

Yeah, there's a benefit to it. I mean, if you want it, there is, there's like a benefit to it. Sam, I also think uh learning to like name the emotion is helpful.

Sam 1:18:26

Yeah.

Rhys 1:18:26

So, like, what am I feeling right now? I feel fucking pissed off. Okay. Yeah. I'm gonna go punch my punching bag that I have, and then I'm gonna go, well, what am I now feeling? And I feel some relief, but I feel sad. And when I feel sad, because I didn't get what I needed in this moment. So I it's like that's been helpful to me. It'd just be like, I am sad.

Colette 1:18:46

I am I I wonder if that doesn't work for you, Sam, if you're because you're like me, you're a very embodied person. You tend to notice what you're feeling in your body before anything else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that's what started it for me, was like in in somatic therapy, it's about finding those finding finding the the sensation in the body, and then like going into it and asking it, you know, what what's going on here. And then sometimes there's a an object that comes up, like the there's an aspect to it. Like I had a weird one uh in my wrist a few weeks ago, and I went into it and I very specifically uh had the image of a dime in my mind.

Sam 1:19:33

A dime like D I M E?

Colette 1:19:35

Yeah, a dime, like the like a coin.

Sam 1:19:37

Okay.

Colette 1:19:38

And you know, my therapist, she holds holds what literally in her hands holds it. And I was like, I don't know why. That was the weirdest and most specific image I had had. And I was like, why a dime? And then her and pops in her head turning on a dime, which is how I've felt in my job that I'm constantly having to turn on a dime. Wow. Uh and so with that metaphor, was able to kind of work through how I was feeling. Um interesting. And it was that I was I was exhausted. Wow. Um, and that my wrist was kind of holding um the fatigue of constantly having to turn on a dime. Uh so yeah, I just wonder if you know, starting with starting with what you got, which is your body, and you're tuned in with that, uh, and kind of meditating and going into it might get you uh a different result than the naming it, because I intellectualized my emotions for a long, long time.

Nic 1:20:38

Yeah, maybe that's not because I I do too. Because I got that from from when I did my EMDR. It was like, okay, going back to this event, what are you feeling? Tension, where in your legs? Because I'm scared and I want to run away. Okay, scared is the emotion, right? And you can kind of kind of go from there. Like, okay, where am I feeling it? What is it? What action does it feel like? Oh, what emotion would go with that action?

Rhys 1:20:59

Well, and also realizing, sorry, hustle culture is not oh yeah, helpful. It's not you're a busy, you're a busy guy. No, yeah. Yeah, I'm curious. Like, how often do you like rest?

Sam 1:21:11

Well, I I make sure to set aside, I do set aside time for that. Pretty like like for example, like I was I was just talking about the not a lecture, Sam. No, no, no. Like I I I how often do you mouth breathing? Less than you.

Sarah 1:21:27

What's the percentage of rest in a color-coded calendar every single day that you take, and how you are able to then compartmentalize that so you know your spaces for rest?

Colette 1:21:37

Stop. Wait, is this what I need to do as a board member of Just Love? Is it to demand a pie chart of your rest?

Sam 1:21:44

The sad thing is, the sad thing is it won't take me any time to generate it.

Colette 1:21:48

I know. I know that's why it's kind of insane.

Sam 1:21:51

No, no, no, no, but um, no, but I make sure like I wake up usually about 4, 4.30 in the morning. And and so and the first thing that I mean, Morgan doesn't come remotely wake up until 6 30. And so, but I've I've made sure to say, like, okay, I because I'm so structured, because I'm so busy, because I don't make a lot of my own choices, I do, but I don't I don't, is um I need the first at least hour or a couple hours of the day to have completely unstructured time that I get to do whatever I want.

Nic 1:22:22

Yeah.

Sam 1:22:22

Like if I like lately I've I get I wake up and I just want to have my tea and watch documentaries. That's what I've been doing. But then in the past I've read a whole bunch and then I went through a comic book thing, and then I played a games, and then you know, so it's that's what I've been, and then at night is always um for me, also always too, a very it's it is a sacred time for me, you know, to to like okay, I'm not, I'm done. You know, I'm not gonna do anything more, I'm just gonna exist. But um, but see, that's what I was what I was thinking when as you guys were saying this was um like sitting in your emotions is not as passive as it sounds.

Coping Heartbreak And Waves

Nic 1:23:01

It's physically passive, but it's not actually passive.

Sarah 1:23:03

No, it there is there's still it doesn't even have to be physically passive. Excuse me. You could be bike riding with your emotions.

Sam 1:23:10

That's true.

Sarah 1:23:11

Well, no, what I'm saying is like you get this idea of like them to the park with you, and then you can cry publicly in front of strangers.

Nic 1:23:17

Yeah, directly while making eye contact.

Sam 1:23:19

Well, it's like even on the like your beach analogy or your beach metaphor, it's like you know, it the wave can come in, but you can you know also like move a little or you know, or you're gonna pick yourself up, or so you just don't sit there just passively just letting this emotion happen. You you you let it happen, but it's also you inquire upon it. Yeah, you know, why are you know what is this? And so there is there is some activity to it.

Rhys 1:23:46

I was gonna say something that's not appropriate. Um you want to know now.

Colette 1:23:53

How dare you?

Sam 1:23:54

See, because we're already gonna have to open the door, we already have three or four edits on this podcast, so we can we could take it out.

Nic 1:24:00

Can I say raw dog on a podcast?

Sam 1:24:03

Yeah. That is absolutely not the worst thing that's ever been said on this thing.

Rhys 1:24:08

I like to equate the way if you've ever been through a romantic emotional heartbreak, that will teach you something about sitting in emotion because you can either go the route of drinking drugs, uh, sex with other people, and bypass it, but it'll come back later. Oh, yeah. Or you can raw dog it and just feel all of it for like nine months. And then you are gonna end up having process through it.

Sam 1:24:40

Yeah.

Rhys 1:24:41

Both are really effing hard. But I have found when I try to not use a coping mechanism that I tend to just cry a ton, grieve a ton, do a lot of shit for a while and feel everything. Sometimes I try not to like put homework to it either. It's like, okay, like I'm just like yes, y'all, the other day it was awful. I went to the ear doctor because I've been having problems, and she squirt hot water into my eardrum to make me dizzy. Oh. To test my vestibular system. And I was crying my eyes out, and and it it brought up a lot of emotions for my child because I've had hearing issues my whole life. Oh, and I left that doctor and I was like, I do not have time to analyze and grieve my younger self right now about the fact why I was crying so bad. I was like, I'm not doing this. Like, I I love you. I told my baby self, I love you. I know we struggled with that, and like I got shit to do. So sometimes I just can't just talk to my inner child all day.

Nic 1:25:46

That's good though. I like that. I I I resonate with that a lot because I it's I those those kind of surprise emotional moments, because this was probably 12 years ago now. I went to the urologist and had to get my scoped. Um, and I'm like, I'm fine, it's cool, whatever. And um, I'm in the room, right? Medical procedure, and fine, whatever. And then two days later, I started feeling I don't know. And like the next time my wife touched me, I fell apart. Oh, I was like, oh, I was traumatized by that experience. I better, right? I would I was not as okay with it as I told myself I was in the moment. I better like work my way through it and just being able to sort of do that. And it's it's always tricky, like it because that was early on in this, and to sort of like realize you can go to the beach and you can do the wave thing, but you don't have to just stand there and go, Oh shit, a wave! Oh shit, another wave. You can actually like be you know be more empowering of yourself in that moment and learning how to really deal with it versus just getting through it. Yep, yeah, right.

Sam 1:26:53

Yeah, I don't think I've processed that one yet, but well, you know, I wonder, I just the more I've just as I've learned about this about myself, you know, it's it's hard not to turn this around on all of humanity and just go, man, there's so many and it and I feel like there's a lot, I mean, I think it's kind of a privilege that we can that we even have this level of self-awareness or the tools to process some or even the time to process some of these things. And um, like I think I think about my parents, you know, and a lot of people like that, that they just never have remotely been given any kind of tools. And I I I joke around, but I'm really serious. I'm just like they they just we just make humans I know, right? We just make humans with like and we think it's like, oh, no big deal. It's like no, what what do we why aren't we teaching like emotional awareness as as soon as you're born?

Sarah 1:27:54

And I think they are starting to do that with their social emotional learning programs and curriculum. In schools now. Not enough. Yeah.

Rhys 1:28:02

Yeah. But like more and more.

Sarah 1:28:05

It's becoming more of a component. I hope so. Depending on the administration.

Sam 1:28:09

Yeah.

Sarah 1:28:10

Do you want to share what you your things,

Sarah On Change And Safety

Sarah 1:28:13

sir? Oh, I've been like wavering on what my thing is the whole time. Reason for being quiet.

Nic 1:28:21

Uh I mean, you don't have to pick a thing, but you know.

Sarah 1:28:25

I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it and like what preamble to use. And I'm very grateful that I know that their things already can be cut because then I can like do this kind of monologuing without feeling as guilty. Because you know, limited time for like audience.

Colette 1:28:39

Oh, don't worry about that part.

Sam 1:28:41

Shh.

Sarah 1:28:42

Um so I want to start with a book. It goes by two names: either The Lost Conspiracy or Gullstruck Island. That's because it's been published in a couple of different countries. But anyway, I really love this book. I don't talk about it nearly as much about as the as the goose book that I'm obsessed with instead. Um but it is a it is a good book. And in it, um, spoilers, by the way, beware. Uh, there is a massacre of an entire village and an attempted uh genocide of a people. And the main character is just like this young girl who's trying to get through it. She's really just trying to keep her sister and herself alive and maybe see if anyone else in her village survived this massacre. Uh, spoilers. Wrong person to and the guy who helped orchestrate it and who sold everyone out, always very sad. Um but like the end of the book ends up with her reflecting after she's been the hero of the story, after she's had to defeat all these odds and bureaucracy, and they're trying to now figure out like what is the world that they're gonna live in, because while her village was massacred, people are going to relocate there and they're gonna live there. And there's this really beautiful, sorry, I've been thinking about this with grief. There's this really beautiful dance that's done at the end that's described of like honoring the people that were there, celebrating their lives, but also knowing that there's going to be like people are going to inhabit this land, they're gonna live in this area, it's a good spot for fishing, it's why people are gonna relocate. And like as a part of the dance, like people keep kind of changing how they dance and how they do it. And so it like ends with her like emerging and hearing other people talk about their perceptions and descriptions of her, and then she ends up like clapping her hands and being like, Okay, I'll change. What do I want to do now? Um, and all that is to say, the main thing like I've learned is that you cannot affect or change how other people will act. You cannot control them. But to a degree, you can control your perception. And if you are in a very dangerous or not good situation, changing your perception might not serve you to necessarily always be like optimistic or survive that. But then ideally, by the time you're in your late twenties to thirties, you can change where you are. And then you can change your perception as well. So all of that to say not that I was in a very dangerous situation or anything like that, but it's your own perception and mindset. But damn, when you are in it and your perception and mindset are completely against you, telling someone that does not help them. It's such a shit thing.

Nic 1:31:35

Um is there any particular sort of perception like that that you've recently set aside or let go or not?

Sarah 1:31:43

It hasn't been recent. Moving to the city is the decision I made. Like moving here about a decade ago was something that saved well this part might get out at all, but it's the thing that saved me. It moved me overway from a bad situation to one that I would be much further away from. So I can then decide how I wanted to be and how I wanted to live and choose to actually live.

Sam 1:32:10

How old were you? You said 10 years ago.

Sarah 1:32:12

I was 17. Oh, wow.

Rhys 1:32:16

So that book resonates.

Sarah 1:32:18

Oh, I read it when I was like Oh, even even younger. Yeah, I read it when I was um I first read it when I was like 11. Still very suicidal though.

Nic 1:32:27

Yeah. But I I I imagine that like especially that that layer with your mom probably m made it more challenging to feel like you were now in like had had gone somewhere safe.

Sarah 1:32:40

I mean uh the my logic was if there are things that can like flower and bloom here, I could probably do that. Because after all, I am not really a human being. I am just a plant. When you when the thing was being said earlier, a fix era, it was really just like, have you made sure she has the proper nutrients? Have you put her under the grow light? Maybe we can elicit more stimuli.

Rhys 1:33:00

I like that.

Sam 1:33:03

That is an amazingly like mature and complex like thought at 17, 18.

Sarah 1:33:10

I mean, if I had stayed where I lived, I'd be dead now, Sam. Yeah. It wasn't the environment where I was gonna be happiest or grow. Oh, so to like sum up, change is inevitable. It is extremely discomforting. Um, but it is also a place of safety sometimes.

Sam 1:33:26

Mm-hmm.

Sarah 1:33:26

If we can make our way through. All my favorite people are people that change.

Sam 1:33:31

Have you have you always been receptive of change? Or have you been I hated it. Yeah.

Sarah 1:33:38

I hated it. I grew up between multiple homes as a kid. I was constantly dealing with changing rules and expectations and ideas and perceptions, and it was exhausting, and no place had the same rules, no place had the same bedtime.

Nic 1:33:52

So so no place had the same Sarah.

Sam 1:33:55

Oh dang. That's a good one.

Sarah 1:34:01

And then you came here and you could be myself without being as observed.

Sam 1:34:06

Or even find out who you were.

Sarah 1:34:08

Yeah.

Sam 1:34:08

Yeah. Without you can make your own rules.

Sarah 1:34:12

I can figure out what are the rules that I want to abide by.

Sam 1:34:15

Yeah.

Rhys 1:34:16

I feel like this is also like that's also such an empowering thing because like you took into your own hands wanting to create safety for yourself, and then you did that. You know what I mean? Whereas like in my life, like I'm still seeking that safety, and I think I see get exterior in an exterior career, situation, relationship. And I'm like, I don't it's you know, how do you create it with for yourself within yourself?

Sarah 1:34:43

You decide what safety looks like to you. You decide what is the safe place that you wish younger you, current you, and maybe even older you gets to have. And then you about embody that to the best of your ability when you can, but you're the only one who's watching to make sure you're doing it.

Rhys 1:34:58

I love that so much.

Sarah 1:34:59

Well, besides others don't like it or accept it.

Sam 1:35:03

Well, besides moving here, like what was like an what how did you find that? Like, what is a I'm assuming it wasn't just one big foul swoop you figured it out. It was like moments of like, oh, this is secure, this is what this is, this is I mean, I've been in like therapy for decades, but Yeah.

Sarah 1:35:22

Uh very luckily not to brag against all of y'all. I bet you, no matter how old anyone is in this room, I've probably been in therapy long ago. So there.

Sam 1:35:30

That's a good brag to have though. I would I I wish more people had that brag.

Sarah 1:35:35

It means I came from parents who very much wanted me uh to be watched and monitored and to make sure I'd be okay and have a space.

Sam 1:35:42

Oh. Yeah. So it was out of a healthy ish.

Sarah 1:35:46

Yeah. I mean, like they were definitely like trying to see for signs of things. But yeah, uh it's good.

Rhys 1:35:55

That's good. That was great. Thank you. Seriously, thank you.

Sarah 1:35:59

Well, it's it's but uh yeah, no, just a lot of change trying to get some of the voices away from my head of internalized perceptions I had of people gave me more room to think about who I wanted to be and what my own values were instead of the values of the environment I grew up in. Which weren't bad, just might not always serve me.

Sam 1:36:20

I'm just so struck you you you arrived at this so young though. Because I mean it was like the Saturn return.

Sarah 1:36:29

We regularly have a conversation where she's like, you know, if you didn't move to New Orleans, like we can go through. I can finally tell you this. She said this a couple years ago, and I was like, Oh what? And she was like, Well, you might have been dead, or like, and I was like, Yeah, I knew that one. And she was like, Yeah, but if you hadn't, like, if you didn't, if you weren't dead, you probably would be like a shut-in and never leave your house, like you wouldn't trust anyone in the world. And I was like, Yeah, that probably could have been the case too. And like we go through the list of like all the negative possible outcomes, and she's like, Yeah, I'm just so proud of you for like existing end of day, like, no matter if you decide to never leave your house tomorrow, and that's the decision you make, like you did it for this long, and that's okay.

Sam 1:37:05

Yeah, you just you just keep you affirm my my theory or insistence that like asking good questions like really does breed a lot of good health and growth.

Sarah 1:37:18

It's not just that though, it's also emotional vulnerability. When you're vulnerable with other people, they feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable with you. Yeah, yeah. It invites them in.

Sam 1:37:28

Well, I think see, that's what when you ask questions and when you show interest, yeah. And then people share a little bit and you ask more, and it's like, oh, they're hearing me and I'm safe. And then you go, and then like I've seen that happen so many times, even you know, in the wild, not because I know we all know each other here, but it's like in the wild, I've seen people go straight to like deep, deep stuff, and it's like it's all because of a question. Yeah that's it. It's that easy. Speaking of question, we can go, we can we can go to the brand new section.

Gathering The Good Takeaways

Sam 1:38:02

This will be easy. We can do this. I don't know. You guys are teaching me a whole lot here. Um, because we're we're heading into we're heading into home stretch here, but we got to do something new, and I talked about it earlier. Uh something we just added to the code number five, gathering the good, because you know, and I've alluded to it, we we talk about curiosity a lot, and and I think a lot of people think it is like a trait. Um like it's something that you have or you don't. Um but I mean this is and this is a little meta, but like curiosity like really does give something back to to not just to it gives back to just everybody around you. Um and it's always been uh I've always wondered like what is what does that actually do for people? And um uh it just opens the things up and it connects folks, and you know, we've talked about that. So before we go, um I really would like everybody to share their thoughts on the question, and this is how I'm formulating it right now. I'm not sold on it, but today curiosity gave me. Um, you know, it could be something that shifted, uh something, maybe a resource or an idea, a connection, um, whatever curiosity actually gave you today. Uh and oh yeah, if you're listening um uh at the podcast, same question, and there's actually a link in the show notes for you to offer that yourself. So uh nick, nick, nick, nick, nick, Elodean. What is uh what what uh that's but you never heard that before. Just like I never heard green eggs and ham, so it's my trauma passing on to you. You're gonna what do you what what what what uh what curiosity give you today?

Nic 1:39:48

It gave me a a different perspective and a realization that I'm sitting at a table with four people who are far more fascinating and wonderful than I realized. Oh and I already had pretty you know eye, but I was so far below our it's it's I've I have I have a lot more to learn and I'm excited to learn it. Wow.

Sam 1:40:07

Well, thank you. I feel the same way. I'm not gonna tell, I'm not gonna pick anybody.

Colette 1:40:15

Yeah, no, let's not volunteer anybody to do uh things. Yeah, not that. Um for me, that Reese's question around what was at the bottom of grief. Um it wasn't until you asked the question that I realized this is the answer. Uh so I would say curiosity gave me insight, new insight into myself.

Sam 1:40:42

That's good. Your turn, Sarah. We just go round robin.

Sarah 1:40:53

I love how quickly you uh you go back on things.

Sam 1:40:56

He needs structure, guys. Listen.

Sarah 1:41:00

Well, it's okay, so hear me out. Um while I am acquaintances with some of y'all here. Um and friends with some of y'all here as well. Is that it? Is that all we are?

Colette 1:41:15

I'm offended.

Nic 1:41:18

Why are y'all dating or something? Or what's did I miss a memo?

Sam 1:41:23

You remind me, you remind me like Morgan and I were like two years in and we were like living together, and she said something like, Oh, we're just dating. And I'm like, what? What we have a joint checking account, you know. We ordered cat food from Amazon together.

Nic 1:41:41

Your trial period is not over. I was just like, hello.

Sarah 1:41:46

I was just gonna say, I'm really grateful to the opportunity to get to know y'all better.

Sam 1:41:51

Yeah.

Sarah 1:41:52

Even those of y'all that I know very, very well.

Sam 1:41:55

Yes.

Sarah 1:41:56

Yeah, they go very, very well.

Rhys 1:42:02

Oh man, what is it giving? Uh I keep I don't know, I keep coming back to love. I know it sounds, but I don't even mean like love. I mean love in terms of feeling held, I guess, and a sense of I'm not alone and community. Um appreciation and worthiness. Yeah. Thank you.

Sam 1:42:33

Yeah, I'd have to say the same thing. Like, I just I love like I I I probably could just talk about what everybody gave me, but it really um like gave me just another it gave me per uh it gave me even greater permission to like be okay with what I'm feeling and what I'm going through and what I'm thinking and that you know, just one uh that yeah, that that it's okay and also that there there really there really is so many people around me that that it's ridiculous. I'll I'll I'll get in these things where like there's nobody I can talk to about this, and I'm just like, what the fuck am I thinking? You know, it's like yes, there's there's like probably too many people I can talk to about this, what I'm feeling. So um, yeah, curiosity gave me a lot more people than I thought I had. Yeah.

How To Reach Us And Closing

Colette 1:43:38

Well, thank you to everyone who brought themselves to this table.

Sam 1:43:41

Did we ever?

Colette 1:43:42

This conversation could not have happened without each of you and your unique and curious perspectives and experiences. And for those listening, if today sparked something in you, uh we want to hear about it. You can text us or leave us a voicemail right from the show notes. Uh that's your version of gathering the good. I will also note we should have the crisis hotline. Yeah. And a trigger warning at the beginning of this episode. I was already thinking that. Yeah, good call. It's been a real intense moment. And uh if you're listening and you're a little, you know, more than a little activated, if you've gotten to this point, you know, bless you. Um, but just know that you know, we're here, we're here if you need someone. Um, but the crisis hotline is a great way to get support if you just need to get through this moment, get through this day, get through this hour. Um, but you are not alone. That's what we want you to know. Um, and we hope that that's some of the gathering the good you have.

Sam 1:44:41

Yeah, very good.

Rhys 1:44:42

And if you've got a question you'd like the crew to sit with next month, please share it with us. One link in the show notes gets you to all of it: the gathering, the community, the conversation, and the way to contact us directly. We would genuinely love to see you there wherever there is for you. Thank you for letting your curiosity get the better of you today. We'll be back around the table again soon with another curious question. So until then, stay curious.

Sam 1:45:14

Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of the Curious Crew Podcast. If there's something or someone in this conversation that made you curious, we want to include you in this conversation, and there's a link for that in the show notes. If you want to pull up a chair in person, we'd love to see you at our monthly gatherings. The link with dates, details, and ways for you to RSAP are in the notes as well. Do you have questions or curious about starting a curious crew in your area? Shoot us an email, which is found in our show notes. Thank you for letting your curiosity get the better of you today. We'll be back around the table again soon with another curious question. Until then, stay curious.