Mattering Most: Values, Meaning, and Legacy

What do you want people to say about you when you’re gone and what are you doing today that backs it up? We sit down with the Curious Krewe to answer a question that sounds simple but gets personal fast: what do you most want to be remembered for, and how are you living toward that right now. 

We talk about legacy through the lens of grief, love, and real relationships, including the difference between kindness vs niceness. For us, kindness is not people-pleasing or fake politeness. It’s boundaries, responsibility, and sometimes saying the hard thing while staying invested in the person across from you. We also get honest about the shadow side: cruelty as self-protection, resentment when giving becomes transactional, and what it takes to stay soft in a world that rewards armor. 

The conversation stretches into self-awareness, calling, and meaning. We share stories from chaplaincy, crisis response, and healthcare about how safety and support can change trauma outcomes, plus what post-traumatic growth might look like for an entire society after events like COVID. We also explore big-picture responsibility, including a long-horizon “500-year vision,” questions about AI and creativity, and why values can be a steadier compass than goals. 

If something in you sparks while listening, subscribe, share the episode with a friend who loves deep questions, and leave a review so more curious humans can find the crew. What do you want to be remembered for?

If this sparked something for you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review or text us through the link above with the question you want us to explore next.

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Curious about all-things Curious Krewe?  All roads converge HERE.

Until then, Stay Curious!

Transcript

Welcome To Curious Crew

Sam 0:10

Do you ever wish for a place where you can ask real questions without a fight? Do you ever want to sit with people who see the world differently than you and still feel connected? Do you ever crave a circle that listens more than it lectures and leaves you a little more human than when you arrived? If this is you, welcome to the Curious Crew Podcast. One honest question with many voices and with real connection. It's where we listen first and we practice curiosity with kindness and then become curious friends together. So without further ado, let's get curious. Joined as always by my coco hosts or coco co-hosts, as well as some other curious humans that you'll meet very, very soon. We're going to do what we always do and start with something that absolutely has nothing to do with our main question. So, Colette, do you want to uh kick us off?

Colette 1:33

Hi, everyone. My name's Colette. My pronouns are they and them. And we're going to have folks share their name and their answer to the curious quickie.

Who Plays You In A Movie

Colette 1:40

Uh, this month's curious quickie is who would play you in a movie about your life?

Sam 1:46

Oh, yeah. I like this one.

Rhys 1:49

I only have three words. Bond, James Bond. Ooh, but which one? Pierce Brosnan. Oh. Maybe Daniel Craig. He's very fine.

Sam 1:59

Yes. Yes, he is. But which one, though? There's got to be one more than the other.

Rhys 2:05

Sean Connery.

Sam 2:08

Well done. Well done.

Colette 2:11

Um I so I trolled the Curious Crew when we were in person this week about this question. First of all, it wouldn't be a movie, it'd be a clown show. And I upped the ante and I've decided that I would want every single one of my clown friends to pay different versions of me at different acts and seasons of my life. I think that would be really fun. Because in the clown classes I used to take at the end, our teacher would make us um to give feedback. We would reenact in clown something that we saw someone else do. Um, and it's a really fun way to like learn what's funny about you and what other people think is funny about you. Um, but it was also really fun seeing how different people embodied myself, you know.

Sam 2:58

Ooh, you gotta have a you gotta have a a little bit of a strong ego to to do that though, or is it just because it's so fun?

Colette 3:05

Oh yeah, no, it's just fun. It's generally nobody's like making fun of you or anything. Like, and if they are, you you're making fun of you, you're a clown.

Sam 3:13

Uh oh, it's good. So how many how many people would need to play you then? If for different sections of your life?

Colette 3:21

I don't know. It depends on when I die.

Sam 3:24

Oh, good point.

Colette 3:30

This morbid moment brought to you by look, I don't know why, but I see this question, the question we're gonna get into as incredibly morbid, but yes, I am all right with that.

Sam 3:41

I found out about that when we discussed it in person. Yeah, yeah.

Colette 3:45

Anyway, who else?

Sam 3:46

Well, I'll say me. Uh I think uh Josh Brolin. You know who Josh Brolin is? Yeah, shoot. Josh Brolin is um Thanos, right?

Colette 3:58

Yep.

Sam 3:58

Yeah, Thanos. But that's not Josh Brolin, obviously.

Colette 4:02

Well, yeah, but he's the guy who plays Thanos.

Sam 4:04

Yeah, but he was in Goonies and No Country for Old Men, and definitely the older version, obviously.

Brenda 4:10

And he's married to Diane Lane. That's the kind of thing I know.

Sam 4:13

He is? I didn't know that.

Brenda 4:14

Yep.

Sam 4:15

Oh wow. He actually came out with a book recently, uh, autobiography about his life. He actually had one hell of a life, though. Like a lot of substance abuse and crazy stuff. It's kind of amazing he made it to where he is today. But yep, Josh Brolin, that's me. I think he uh looks just like me. So it's a physical appearance that that and I think he has the uh he he has the acting chops to take on the depth of uh what it is to be me. And so I just really don't think any other actor can pull it off.

Rhys 4:45

So you do kind of look like each other, it's true. Yeah. I mean he's a he's a good looking guy.

Sam 4:50

So I will take that as a side compliment.

Rhys 4:53

So that's why I said James Bond. Yeah. You could see me now.

Sam 4:58

That's that's true. Yeah. I don't know. I can I couldn't do you like with a bald head though, I don't think. Oh, Sean Connery? Yeah, he had a bald well, you're talking James Bond from winning young James Bond. James. Now see, I can yes, you're you're spot on. Middle-aged. Yeah. Well, you don't want to be like James Bond, like well, Sean Connery in his 80s.

Rhys 5:16

No, no, no. I mean, he's still charming though.

Sam 5:18

Yeah.

Brenda 5:19

You kind of look like teenager James Bond. Ooh.

Sam 5:24

Which teenager though?

Brenda 5:25

I don't know, but he looks very young.

Rhys 5:27

Oh, thank you. My niece yesterday was like, you look 10 years old. Like, shall I watch that's your shirt?

Sam 5:39

So maybe you could uh you could actually do the origin, like the early, like midlife of James Bond before. Yeah.

Rhys 5:47

But then again, he's playing me.

Sam 5:49

Oh, that's true. That's true.

Rhys 5:50

Well, you can I mean you can make it. I can make it happen. Yeah, you can make it happen. Moving on. To not me, I mean.

Brenda 5:58

Um, I came up with Alison Janney. Not I she doesn't look anything like me, but she is great at comedy.

Sam 6:06

Trying to remember.

Brenda 6:08

I like to think that I'm funny.

Sam 6:09

So you yeah. Is she just a stand-up or has she been in something?

Brenda 6:14

Oh no, she's a big actress. She's been in all sorts of stuff, and now you're gonna ask me what, like the West Wing. Have you ever watched The West Wing? She was the uh I'll look her up. Yeah.

Sam 6:24

Alice and Janney.

Brenda 6:25

Oh, she's been in tons of stuff.

Sam 6:28

That's good.

David 6:29

Well, uh oh, David. I'm the last person. Um, yeah, so uh I was thinking hard about this because I'm not I've never it's an interesting question. I love it. Um I would have to say Mahershala Ali. Not for the looks, because obviously we look different, but obviously you're way better looking than he is.

Sam 6:49

Thank you.

David 6:50

Well, there you go, there you go. Yeah, that's the kind of response I was like, Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Um no, probably because he's to me, he's very steady, very um uh deliberate with how he moves, and that is a strong quality that I think about when I think about myself. Yeah.

Sam 7:11

Yeah. I could see that. Yeah, that's that's true to life. That's how David works. Very solid study. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Definitely want to have him in a crisis. I'm sure he doesn't want to be in the crisis, though.

David 7:22

Uh, I've been in many crises.

Sam 7:24

Okay. So he's crisis uh open. Yes. Crisis available. He's crisis fluid. So no. Well.

Rhys 7:35

Is that everyone? That is everyone. Well, awesome. Now that we've warmed up, let's get into why we're really here.

The Curious Code And Question

Rhys 7:42

Before we do, though, a quick word on how we do things around in the crew. We keep the space safe, kind, and real. Not with a bunch of rules, but with what we call the curious code.

Colette 7:53

First, respect beats being right always.

Sam 7:56

And we make sure we make room for fun because it helps us connect.

Rhys 8:00

Listen first more than you talk.

Colette 8:03

Respond with curiosity, questions before conclusions.

Sam 8:07

And the new edition uh is gathering the good. Uh, we leave with something worth carrying. Um, like I said, the last one's new, and it's why um everybody here has got some paper and pen in front of them. We do that too in the in-person uh gathering. Uh and so as you go through the night, you jot down anything that stands out to you. Um, a book, someone mentions, an idea that sticks out to you, a moment worth remembering, just a just a word or two is plenty. Uh, whatever's helpful for you in your notes, and we'll come back to that um at the end. Um, and you'll want them to for yourself later too to look at.

Rhys 8:41

So now that we have the code, let's get to the curious question voted on by the curious crew, which is what do you most want to be remembered for? How are you living toward that right now?

Sam 8:55

Yeah, this turned out to be a much deeper question than I I thought it would be.

Colette 9:04

Yeah,

A Brother’s Kindness As North Star

Colette 9:05

I'll go first. Um Yes, it is inherently heavy because to me it uh begs the question of like what do you want people to say at your funeral? Um or yeah, what who do you want to run your deathbed? I those sort of questions all kind of feel the same for me here. And it made me think about my brother's funeral. Uh he died when he was 16. And um the experience of that, of course, was intense. You know, I'm six years older than him. Uh so I was 22 at the time of his funeral, and it was his funeral and also the vigil at the school that I had no idea how many people he was always trying to help, and um how he was known for kindness and inspiring others to kindness. Um and we were we were really close. So I like I'm not saying I didn't know my brother was kind. That's not what I'm saying. I didn't know it was to that level, um, where you know, there was like standing room only in this in this church. And uh at the vigil, you know, just so many people wanted to come to my family and tell us about about him, about Austin. Uh and they all called him Woody, um, which like made he he loves Toy Story, which I gotta go see the new one. I haven't done it yet, but I don't want to cry today. Um that I'm ready to cry. Uh and Woody having a bald spot that's got me all fucked up. But um he yeah, he loved Toy Story and would wear jeans, uh you know, blue jeans and and cowboy boots every day. Anyway, really? Yeah. Oh, he was he was serious about this then, and uh and t-shirts usually. Um and so but hearing the way people talked about him, I was like, that's the way I want to be remembered. And um, and when I I talk about kindness, I'm not talking about niceness. You know, I I I don't necessarily care about being considered nice because it usually means that you're unboundried and um just kind of let people walk all over you. Uh instead, kindness is like about what is just, what is fair, um, doing the right thing by people. Um and I think that formative experience has guided my entire life. And not that I wasn't kind before, but I think it became it sealed the value in, you know. Um especially since it was such a tragic thing, like he died suddenly, and um it but I also it it makes me wonder like that saying only the good die young. I do think on some level we must know when we're gonna die, because for a kid, for a teenage boy, yeah, to care that like to be that way says to me like there was really something something instilled in him to know like I've gotta make the best of the little time that I have. Um I and I do think on some level he knew that. Um and for me, the way that's kind of informed my my life, and I think it also aligns with what I'm good at. He and I were both had a lot in common with how we um the the kind of relationships that we had with people, the more I got to know his friends after his death, the more I realized like, oh, we have a similar approach to our connections with people. Oh, and that connection is like really seeing the best in people. There were some people that he was friends with, I'm like, probably shouldn't have been friends with, but like he saw the best in them and they and he brought out the best in them. And I think that's what I want to do as well as like as an educator, as a as a director, a nonprofit founder in my work, my whole work has centered on that, and like trying to inspire people um to live their values and for those values to be around centered on compassion and relationality and um and kindness because I I like there's so much, there's so much like bad in the world. I really don't want to be subsumed by that and um having gone through so much darkness in my own life, um, that I just don't want to participate in like bringing more more dark into the world or more uh evil um or violence. And so yeah, and how am I living towards that right now? It's certainly part of my work, but like even as I I think about what my life is outside of work, some of my favorite things I do um in my clown work is uh playing like the earnest silly idiot. You know, I like an earnest character, I think it's incredibly endearing to be somebody who just like really wants to get it right. And also in clown duos, the earnest character is often like kind of being put down a little bit by the other power player, and but still loves that person. Um and I think there's something to be said to that, like that when somebody gives you bad, that you come back to them with a full continue to come with them with a full heart. Uh and and so like even in my creative work, I think that's informed that that as well. Uh and just like staying soft, like when the world wants to make me hard, how how can I stay soft is something that I'm always asking.

Sam 15:11

So

Kindness Versus Niceness

Sam 15:12

you said you kind of made a delineation. What is and I not to turn this into a Webster dictionary thing, but what is it to you the difference between kindness and niceness? Because I know you said boundary, boundaried. Yeah, unboundary, nice niceness is unboundried.

Colette 15:32

Yeah, and it's not always real. Um I think nice can is easier to fake. Um you know, that it's you know, that like southern thing, like, oh bless your heart.

Sam 15:44

Oh yeah, when it's really you're an idiot. Yeah, yeah.

Colette 15:47

Um that like kind of faux niceness. I I I find that I can uh clock it in people really quickly and I can tell when somebody's actually truly kind. Uh and kind people uh don't necessarily um they're not always trying to um gas people up, you know, or make people feel better. Sometimes the kind thing to do is not the the easy thing to do. Um and for example, holding people accountable, being responsible. Um, I think a big part of kindness for me is being responsible to like my participation in the human condition. Um and so it's very much values driven, whereas niceness is more uh in pursuit of external validation.

David 16:40

Oh, okay. That's great. You got some real great articulation about that. You really are that's great. Yeah, I'm curious what um if you don't mind sharing, when was the last time where you really differentiated this niceness, kindness in your in your own day-to-day?

Colette 17:00

That's a good question. Um so in my process of becoming an educator, we have to uh really truly become a self like ourself. And I had a lot of people pleasing tendencies. And I think people pleasing and niceness can kind of be wrapped up in the same thing because of that external validation piece, like seeking that. Um, and for for me, uh uh when working with interface chaplains, the nice thing would be to constantly validate them and say you're doing a great job and only being strengths-based and only, you know, um, yeah, only telling them everything good that they're doing. Whereas to me, the kind thing is if they want to be a better chaplain and I'm here to help them get there, that means sometimes I have to say the uncomfortable thing, I have to give them feedback that they may not like, that they have met may never have heard before, um, and that they that their ego might take a tank for, you know. And so when I had to get into the habit of challenging people, I was confronted with the reality that um that the the divergence of kindness and niceness, that's where it met, is when like the relationship gets hard. Um and there's that tension. So I think that's probably where, and it's because I like my work demands that I give people feedback. So I'm always giving them their strengths and their limitations. I'm sorry, but there's something in this room that's Oh, I'm sorry.

Sam 18:47

You got some water right there. There's a water right there.

Colette 18:49

No, no, it's not helping. Um there's when you're giving feedback to people all the time. Um my question has always been how do I give feedback that they s while they s in a way that they still know that I believe in them. Ah that I have their back and that um that I'm I'm in the I'm in it with that they're not gonna have to figure this out alone. I think that's where kindness sat for me was in intention and making sure that they didn't feel like I was like throwing a challenge at them and then like bolting. Okay, here's this hard thing, deal with it, boy. Like um, that I was gonna have some skin in the game with them.

Sam 19:36

Because there was always because I've seen you do it, and there's a thing, but then and you're I think there's also a skill in in doing that where you you offer a a a challenge, which is actually too almost a little hard of a word, because when it's done right, it is it does feel kind, you know. You don't you feel uh challenged, but it's also like it's almost like getting challenged with a hug.

Colette 20:01

Right.

Sam 20:02

You know? But um, I forget what I was gonna say now.

Colette 20:04

You could I I I I invest in people whenever I'm challenging them, you know, or maybe saying uh just call it like saying the hard thing or or something that may may not they may not receive well. It's like I'm I am investing in you and in in work in your career or in personal relationships in our relationship, um in your goodness, in your humanity enough to tell you what I see.

Sam 20:33

Yeah, but then there's never a point where yeah, you don't just drop it off and buy. It's like, okay, and they'll sharing, and then there's like, how are we gonna help? How are we gonna help be get here? Yeah.

Rhys 20:42

I've I find that to be extremely true of Bill. I've always um the way you're articulating is really I was telling Sam yesterday, I'm a bit of a golden retriever in terms of my personality, and I need cuddles and affection, and and sometimes your um the way you say something can feel more like a German shepherd to me. But but and I say that in the nicest way because I can German shuffles are are also very loyal and they're deeply caring. Oh yeah. And I but I still feel like you care so deeply, and maybe you're saying something really direct that a golden retriever might not say, you know what I mean? But it's like I need that, and so yeah, you described that really well. You're super investing, you're always standing there, you're not just like Reese, like get it together by, you know, and deeply appreciate that.

Brenda 21:31

If somebody wants to do their job well, then they want that kind of feedback. Yeah, yeah. And they'll take it, and uh, it may be hard to take, but if they listen to it and you give them examples and you're doing it in the right way, then that helps them do their job better and then everybody's happier.

Colette 21:51

Yeah, for sure. I well, um my one of my teammates felt like I was like gassing her up this week and I was like, You do know this is How I talk to everyone that I believe in. She was like, No, I I keep forgetting that that that's just part of who you are. She's like, I don't really believe it. And I've had a lot of people tell me I didn't, I didn't think you were as um, they would use the word as nice as you appear. And then I realized, like, oh, you're actually nice is probably the wrong word. Yeah. Um, but how invested you truly are in people that you don't like, don't even really know that well. Um, but that's also part of my work. I work with students for like three months to a year. Uh some at for as maybe as long as four years, that's about the the longest I'll work with somebody. Um, but during that time, I'm like deeply invested in their in their learning and their transformation. Um and uh so yeah, it doesn't it doesn't feel um right to me to like leave anything on the table when I only have somebody for a short time. Um yeah. But I'm also I think part of the reason this has gotten easier, kind of going back to your question, David, is because I realized um I I don't have a tolerance for letting an elephant stay in the room without acknowledging it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah I bec I c I became like intolerant to that and so it kind of pushed me in this direction. It's like, well, how do I how do I like say the elephant is in the room without being an absolute asshole about it?

David 23:38

You know? Wow, that's really good. I I like that articulation. Um and I'm not just being nice, I think about things like this as well on just in my own um own time. I think about and it's a funny that you say teacher because that to me, that's instantly what I think of. Like some of the best teachers I've ever had are not the ones that are just nice or giving me a good grade, it's the ones that see me. Yeah, and they are trying to guide me in the right direction. So that that's spot on. That's great.

Colette 24:10

Yeah, homage to my favorite teacher of all time is Jim Powell. And like he is still a good teacher and friend to people I went to high school with who are he was my band director, people who be became band directors because of him. And I became a teacher because of him. I did not learn to be a I didn't become a band director, but I became an adult educator, and I very much am always remembering our deep conversations. I'd show up for piano lessons and my hands would be shaking. Um and he would see that and he would he we would stop him and like what's going on, be crying in his office, and um, and then I'd feel better at the end of it. But we would talk philosophy, um, we would uh we would talk about what what what I was struggling with, like everything. Um and when he left, it was just like this big hole in of like, this is a real uh mentor in my life, somebody who helped me set me on a track to becoming a better person, um, and really was a formational uh person in my life. I had a lot of teachers like that, but he's by far the the one that resonates the most.

Sam 25:30

It makes me wonder because when you think about I because it you can ask anybody a question like who's some been some of the most influential people in your life. I I this is anecdotal, but I I'm I I wonder if the overwhelming percentage of of occupations or roles were teachers. I bet.

Colette 25:47

Yeah.

Sam 25:47

Yeah.

Colette 25:48

I think so.

Sam 25:49

Yeah. That was good.

Limits, Cruelty, And Staying Soft

Brenda 25:55

Anyone else? Well, I wrote down when you said you come back with a full heart. Um, and I think what you said before that when someone says unkind things or does unkind things. I assume have you had times when it just didn't seem worth it?

Colette 26:18

Absolutely. I don't throw pearls to swine, as my dad would say. Um yeah, uh, I'm careful about that though, because I think we don't often give people enough credit for what they are capable of um handling. Like I've talked about on the podcast about my relationship to my parents. I never thought that they would have that capacity to be who they are today, um, but they are. And in part, I think because I was willing to have that conversation. But um, no, there are certainly people that I'm like not going to waste my time or energy on. Um, and that's for kindness towards myself. Yeah. Um, because yeah, that's also part of this equation. I do also want to be known as someone uh who is kind to myself as much as I am kind to others. Um, I don't I think there's too much of a shadow side of being totally self-sacrificing. Um you just become so preoccupied with everyone else you're not at all concerned with yourself. Um so yeah, there are are a few people like that um that I sometimes deal with now in uh in other environments. So yeah.

Sam 27:34

Well wouldn't you say though, like, well, that's leading, but uh because there I'm trying to formula this in a question, but I'm not gonna do it. Kindness, like uh allowing or not permitting somebody to continue to harm you or somebody else, couldn't you consider that a kindness? Because you're you're stopping them the ability to cause harm by disengaging.

Colette 28:00

For sure.

Sam 28:00

Yeah. So it's kindness adjacent because you're helping them out to stop the behavior.

Colette 28:05

Well, if they're capable of guilt.

Sam 28:07

Yeah. Well, I mean, in that moment.

Colette 28:10

Right.

Sam 28:10

Yeah, you're disconnecting the the the relationship or the the interaction or something.

Colette 28:15

Yeah. And like I definitely not a doormat. Um, there are people in my life that used to be important in my life, like essential characters in my and I no longer speak to them because of um their inability to to be kind in return. Um that's not every relationship. Like I'm not saying everyone who's unkind to me gets the you know, gets the door. But um I'm very selective of how I spend my energy. Um, and I do think that on some level we create the monsters we live with. Not as a wholesale thing. I'm not like blaming victims or anything, but I do think on in some system like family systems in particular, in systems in the workplace that what we tolerate uh creates our very pain points.

Brenda 29:11

And sometimes maybe the people who are most important in your lives become the people you distance the most because they can hurt you the most. Yeah, for sure.

Colette 29:21

Yeah.

Brenda 29:23

Um yeah, remember whenever I And use because they know you so well, use your weaknesses and your own thoughts about yourself and harm you that way.

Colette 29:34

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, they have the perfect ammunition to to take the kill shot, so to speak. Yeah.

Sam 29:40

Oh, isn't that the worst? That's the worst.

Colette 29:43

But something that you know, I've I've I've said uh to to those folks is like, you care more about the pain caused by you than the pain you're causing others. And I can't I those are the kind of people that I can't be in a relationship with. Is like you're more preoc preoccupied with your own pain that you can't see the pain that's around you um uh and the pain that you're causing. That's whenever my limit starts to get met, is when I'm seeing a lack of empathy in general.

Brenda 30:13

For me, it's cruelty for the point of cruelty. And I I had this discussion with my son lately because there was something he was going through and someone he was gonna talk to that was important and it needed to be talked, you know, talked about. But I told him the one thing you have to be careful of is you can't be cruel. You can't say anything that that's cruel because you can't ever take that back. Oh, yeah. And in my experience, because I have done that before. Me too. Yeah. I still remember that cruelty and I st and I can't fix it and I can't change it. But it's something that lives inside of me that I have grief over.

Colette 30:51

Yeah, and I think that's probably why it's so important to me. It's because yeah, I have hurt people, and um, because I'm good with words, it's also it's also like double-edged sword. The double-edged sword. It's m it's a superpower and a super villain power, do you know what I mean? Um, and so yeah, I uh I that's been a big reason why I think kindness has become important to me is because I have participated in cruelty and I don't like that version.

Brenda 31:18

No, you know, no, and often it's it feels like self-protection it is, yeah. In the moment, and that that's something it's it's it's taken me a long time to figure out that I've spent too much of my life protecting myself instead of putting myself out there, yeah. And you know, figuring it out. Right.

Colette 31:43

For me at at this point, and I've I've said this to a therapist, and it's I something I uh actually recently my therapist threw it back in my face. Ouch. Screw you, Marissa, I know you're listening. Um I love her, but um that like I would rather to keep my heart open and and and receive hurt and pain than keep my heart heart closed and let it like calcify um into into like a deeper sense of unwellness, you know, and cruelty. Because I think people who are cruel that that's what they've done. They've closed their heart off to the world and and to other people, um, and allowed it to calcify into this sickness and violence, um, and and the that kind of like feral animal of like clawing at people all the time. Yeah. Um, and there's enough of that in in my family system that I'm like, that very well could be me. And I don't that's that's definitely what I don't want to be remembered for. Yeah.

Sam 32:50

Yeah. Thank you.

Rhys 32:55

Isn't it scary when you realize that you have not you, but like in general Capital U, Capital Y U? Capital Y have those potential characteristics in you that were adopted from the imperfection of your family.

Sam 33:11

Oh, don't we don't have time for that. And then it's That's everybody's business.

Rhys 33:18

And then you're like, oh, I don't want it to tip in that direction, but I know it's in me to tip in it, and maybe it's even been proven in a few situations or called out by someone, and you're like that is the question I ask myself all the time when I catch myself doing those things, and I'm just like, What how does this still hear?

Sam 33:38

Yeah, and like how I I know this is not right.

Rhys 33:41

Because if you're a good person, which everybody here is, uh I don't even know what good means, but like when you are an intentional person, uh you s you at least has been on experience, spend a lot of your time trying not to be those things. Yeah. So that when you are, you're like, Where the hell did I come from? Yeah. Um, but I uh I don't know. I guess the point is to try and accept those imperfections and work with them instead of like deny them.

Sam 34:07

I just know it's uh when I do stuff like that, it's like, oh, my lizard brain got hit. I better, you know, hurry up and back because that's the deepest part of you know self-protection, I think.

Rhys 34:16

Yeah.

Sam 34:16

And so you just lash out and you come.

Rhys 34:18

Or or even like for me, my flip side of kindness and compassion, which drives a lot of what I do professionally, even is um selfishness and self-centeredness and anxiousness and like all of those other sides of me that I see. I'm like, I know. Yeah, and unworthiness because I have those things. Oh.

Colette 34:43

Well, that just makes me wonder what sometimes when we give and give and give and give, we s uh we do it with the subtext that we will then receive.

Sam 34:53

Uh yep. Yep.

Colette 34:54

And then when we don't, we resent. Um, and that's why it's so important to like balance how much you're giving uh kindness to others and then to yourself, and also acknowledging your own needs and not just acknowledging others' needs. Because yeah, I I get really grumpy if I keep giving too much and uh I haven't been paying attention to myself. That version of me comes out very quickly. Um and what I've noticed about it is not just accepting it or acknowledging it, is I have to make friends with what is this part of myself trying to tell me about how I am right now. It's information. Um, and so doing that shadow work and saying like yes, sometimes being selfish versus selfless, they're they're they're not binaries, they both need to exist in your world.

Sam 35:50

Yeah.

Colette 35:51

Um, in my opinion.

Sam 35:52

Like you have to have both. I've actually how I've ar come to articulate it is I I think the path is the the middle ground is self-fulness and and and the fact that you can you can exist fully as yourself and allow other people's people to exist fully as themselves, and you are fully yourself because you do that. And I I mean I in a way I think that's what self-actualization is. That you you can be yourself uh fully, and uh no matter how anybody else is in their fullness, you can you can still exist like that. Yeah, I think that's the ultimate path. At least that's how I've thought about it.

David 36:35

That's really good. That's where my mind goes. Yeah. That uh well, let me s preface by saying first of all, all that I'm hearing like from Rhys. Reese and Colette, this is like it's like personal to everybody, I think. Oh everybody knows what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about.

Sam 36:55

Um except for the avoidant people. Right. Sorry, avoiding people, sorry. We're not all time definitely.

David 37:04

But I would say that the fact that you guys are even saying what you're saying, to me, it it's about consciousness then, right? Like because sometimes we're just like that, and and so many people, like myself included, I know. I just like you just go in circles, you have these things that happen to you, and you don't understand why things are happening, and it's it's how we are, right? It's like we actually created this, as I think you alluded to. Um, so that I think what you said about this sort of holy being yourself, to me, that's that's where it's at. Um I think there is something to all of all that we've been talking about, niceness and kindness. Um if if I am good, if I like if I inside myself, I am good, it doesn't really matter what's happening on the outside.

Sam 37:58

Yep, yep.

David 38:00

But me being good, that's where the work is. So, you know.

Sam 38:04

Well, isn't that ultimately what actually is happening when people get activated? It's not have it almost never has well, I don't want to say never, a lot of the time it has nothing to do with what the person is doing. It has what that person did that touched the things in you, yeah. That is just that that little bear that always you're just waiting to get poked and you're just like, what?

David 38:25

Nope, I'm coming out swinging. So it's almost like thank you for showing me what's in me that I need to work on. It's not like uh, you know, F you, it's not like that. It's more like, what about that in me? You know, why is that so uh why does that touch on something so much? I gotta work on that.

Sam 38:47

I think, but it's I think it's really hard for folks to get to that place. Well no, it is. It is real, it's because you're talking about self-awareness, yeah, yeah.

Colette 38:55

But that's why I love being an educator. Um, something in my line of work that we talk about is that our students are um mirrors of parts of ourselves. So when I'm selecting my students, because there's a selection process, um I'm trying to figure out who can who can I connect with. And in a lot of ways, I'm choosing what work I'm gonna do that unit or that year. Yeah. Oh like my last group at Oshner was all men, and I was like, I'm gonna find out something about masculinity this year. I freaking know it. Um, and uh and and non-toxic masculinity because they were all wonderful human beings. They are all wonderful human beings, and so um in their own way, and it was funny watching them piss each other off because it's like y'all are just mad at each other for the things that you don't want to deal with in yourself, you know, like they get mad at each other for being like dogmat about this or that. I'm like, you're dogmated on the other side of the street, like it's you're you're you're the same, you know? Yeah, um so yeah, I think when if we start to I'm not into that whole like new age, like we are all one thing, like we're interconnected, but we are there's there there's something that's getting mirrored back, yeah. That's why we get all little lap. Yeah.

Brenda 40:18

Well, sometimes that self-realization comes when you're not even looking for it.

Colette 40:23

Yes.

Brenda 40:24

I remember having I had a fight with my husband, and I was walking through the house later in the day, and I'm going, I can't believe he did this, and I can't believe he said that. And I just stopped out in my tracks and said, Oh crap, that was me. Oh I did that, I said that. And then I went on and I was like, oh man, now I have to go back and take care of this because I'm the one who caused the problem.

Rhys 40:45

Now I have to apologize. Yeah, the worst, the worst A-word in the world world, you know.

Sam 40:56

Oh, I was thinking, thank you, Colette. That was great.

Rhys 41:00

Yes. Uh, well, maybe uh segue and jump really quick. I was

Mirrors, Growth, And Being Intimidating

Rhys 41:09

just thinking, you know, we always talk about mirroring back in Chaplain World and Therapy and these podcasts. And we always talk about it in a way of like, oh, what's the kind of hard thing in yourself that you maybe are reflecting back and need to work on? But I'm like, I'm wondering, like, have you ever um heard of post-traumatic growth? Yeah, yeah. What? Post-traumatic traumatic growth factor. It's like a psychological, you could probably explain it better, but like somebody who goes through something traumatic also has a period of deep, like positive growth. Oh, yeah. Um anyway, I was gonna ask the question, and then also it's kind of segue to mine of what about things that get reflected back there like you've really worked on and now you're seeing back in your life that are so fun and positive and energy bringing.

Sam 42:00

I can the what the biggest uh I this is easy for me, uh, because I've been told all my adult life I'm intimidating.

Colette 42:09

Really?

Sam 42:10

Yes, interesting. Yes, and uh and it was about five or six years ago that um I realized someone told me that and when someone say that, I'd be like, Well, that's your problem, not mine, which is nice and intimidating, you know? Yeah, it's just like, yeah, I was like, duh. Uh but then when I realize I remember when somebody uh said that to me, and I think it was the way they said it to me, that it just like it felt like I got like just stabbed, and I was like, I don't want to be like that. And I've worked so hard on not being intimidating. Like I don't read you as that at all. See, and that I've a lot of people have said that, and that makes me genuinely tear up because I still feel I'm super intimidating. Oh, interesting. But and I'm probably once again with I'm not gonna name their name at all, who's who's been a very good challenger to my life. Which which brings me up to like there's people like you may be a golden retriever, but I am a pit bull, and so like you need to like in the room earlier and I saw you like staring at that SD card.

Rhys 43:14

I'm like, oh my god, he's such a dork, I love it.

Sam 43:16

And I thought, you are more of a golden to me than you are fake, but but I need to like Colette knows this, Morgan knows this. The best way to to get to talk to me is very direct, yeah, not mean, you said yesterday, yeah. Very direct, and it's like you're being an asshole. And it's like, and that I will not take offense to that. I'll be like, oh, okay, asshole. I got it. I'm used to that.

Brenda 43:39

Well, I find you intimidating, but not because that's so interesting, not bad in you, but you like I feel like you can look into my soul. Oh, I feel like you you you you just really want to know, you really want answers, and it's it intimidates me. Like, am I coming up with the right answers? Is this deep enough? Is this

Sam 44:00

This, you know, whatever you say, that's the right answer.

Brenda 44:03

I have another friend like that though, because they just want to know everything. And giving someone everything can be really hard.

Sam 44:12

Very. Well, and in a way, when you ask those questions, too. I realized in my intimidation work that that that you know, especially for somebody who's avoidant or somebody who, you know, just hasn't really thought that, you know, they to to to to realize, like, oh, is this the right time to ask this for them? And you know, or when they when I see the try to read their face, be like, okay, let me backpedal that a little bit, you know. Yeah, just to be because, you know, that can be intimidating because like I know Morgan and I uh we we have some disconnections like that sometimes because like I walk around all the time, like, you know, what is existence? You know, it's like and she's like, Would you just have some fucking fun once in a while? And is like, this is fun. What what do you mean? Don't you want to ponder the the questions of the universe? But but then it's like, oh yeah, this is the time to dial it down, Sam. You're like, oh, look at this beautiful green wall. You know.

Rhys 45:04

I feel the same way because I was actually just thinking maybe that's an avoidant tendency.

Sam 45:08

What do you mean?

Rhys 45:09

Um so for example, like I just started my work over at Oshner and the ER, and it's like really intense and really serious. And um, but I've also gone through my own growth, I think, in the past two years and realized going into that job that in the past I would let that be all consuming of who I am and only be in the deep shit and only in the serious shit. But then I'm like, but I know this time I don't want to abandon the other part of me that's dying to come out, which is like this very well, I love to have fun, I love to dance in theater and just do silliness. Like, and I'm like, okay, I see that I could avoid the silliness part of me that wants to come out through this job, and now I'm trying to be aware of like, and like so asking the dequestion is absolutely nothing wrong with that and being in the seriousness, but sometimes I think there is a tendency to just like not want to do the easier things.

Sam 45:57

Yeah, which is it just like goes back to what David was saying. No, I think we get in our loops, and for some reason that loop for me feels comfortable. Yeah, me too. And and which in a lot of ways it's not a bad loop, but sometimes it's bad.

Rhys 46:13

But it is when you start, I don't know, for me, like at least self-abandoning the other parts of yourself that need attention and have been dying for attention. Yeah. Yeah.

Brenda 46:24

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I, you know, I wish there is a part of me who would love to come out and be a clown.

Clowning As Honest Self-Work

Colette 46:34

Uh-oh.

Brenda 46:35

I don't I don't have I'm the one who's gonna sit in the back going, I wish I could do that, I wish I could do that, but not have the gumption to get on the stage and do it.

Colette 46:47

Look, I was that person. Um so I wanted to be a clown my entire life, did not give myself permission to do it until 2020. When I went through a divorce night, it was like, I gotta do something. Or I gotta I gotta do something that's gonna bring me the the joy that I've been craving in my life, and it's been the exact thing that that gave me that. And I didn't think I'd ever be performing in front of people. Like I started taking clown classes just be for the joy of the the journey, and then um like learned a lot about being a human. And the cool thing about clown is like it it's about mirroring the goodness in you and also the the shadow parts. So you were talking about kind of like shadow work. I do a lot of shadow work in my clown. Like I have I have some really love to hate them kind of characters because it's a way for me to do some of that like um investigation of cruelty, like you were talking about. I just think there's the the arts, but clown in particular, because it is about being a mirror to humanity. That's a big part of theatrical clowning. Um, is just like holding up the mirror and saying, like, look how ridiculous we are. Yeah. As human beings. Um, and also like look how profoundly beautiful and messy we are. And um that's that's why I've like loved now performing, but honestly, I love practice as much as anything else. I love creating my costumes and doing all that background work uh because it has really helped me investigate different parts of myself. Now I have like 24 different characters, and my therapist and I will sometimes be like, so what clown is forward today? Uh which character is playing uh has the steering wheel today, you know? Um so you you never know what you'll what you're gonna learn. I have so many clown teachers to encourage you towards.

Sam 48:50

Yeah, there's a whole there's there's classes 101, 102, 103, 104.

Colette 48:53

Your prescription joining, follow them.

Sam 48:55

Great classes coming in the fall. Well, maybe we can uh all do it together.

Brenda 49:01

I definitely have that thing inside of me. Curious crew clown? Yeah, exactly. I definitely have that thing inside of me that wants to be noticed, but don't dare put me on that stage. But I'm not going up there, so you better come over here. You know what I mean?

Sam 49:16

Well, you won't be on the stage, your clown will be.

Rhys 49:23

That's good.

Being Present And Having Fun

Rhys 49:25

So I want to be known for a lot of things.

Colette 49:30

Yeah.

Rhys 49:34

I guess number one, I want to be known for being really very present with people when I'm with people. That's really important to me. Um, it's really important that my niece knows that I'm there with her and engaged in her perspective as a child. Yeah. Um, because I also derive so much joy from being present with her. It's really important that my family knows that. Um if they yeah, my family knows that. We'll stop there. Um yeah, and just the bridge uh that I I am a person who's very intangible on nurturing nurturing the one-on-one connection.

Colette 50:12

Yeah.

Rhys 50:12

Um, I don't like being in social settings when somebody's like a lot of people are just sitting on their phone. Uh, you know, we all have to check it here and there and do our thing, but like when I'm with someone, I want to be with someone.

Sam 50:24

Yeah.

Rhys 50:25

Um, I do want to be known for having fun. I think it's really ironic right now. There's a drag show going on at the same time as this podcast because it's really calling me. Pink pony club is happening. Decisions were hard decisions were made. I love being here. But I'm like, I want to really lean more into my queer life and dancing and theater and all that because it's just such a part of me, and I just feel really alive when I'm doing those things. Um I've heard that from you twice two days in a row. I know. I was telling him all about my queer life. I might have to push it. And then somebody's gonna have to push me because unfortunately I just I have so much uh internal homophobia, it's really sad. That's another topic though. Yeah. Um, and then I think professionally, I've always carried with me a dream, and I don't know where it came from. I think it's just collected over time um of wanting to become a very um, I think really professionally, like a professional in the world of the overlap of mental health and clinical. Um I think I don't know what it is yet, but I see myself being some sort of leader in the disaster response recovery space internationally. Um I think it would be really awesome to lead a team of chaplains internationally in the like humanitarian world. Oh and the same, like I do right now, I'm working at the ER just as a tech and have trained as an EMT and I love that work. And I think my ultimate gift in that space is uh responding to people in crisis and uh um from a psychological spiritual.

Sam 52:12

Yeah.

Rhys 52:13

But also having the medical so that I can act in those spaces accordingly. So you're like a you're acting like a chaplain plus chaplain paramedic overlap.

Colette 52:22

Yeah.

Rhys 52:23

Um that I can do both the medical, like I've I've wrote like 10, maybe like four years ago, I was going through a discernment process to be a priest, and I was really frustrated with the process. It's like, let me just write uh on my phone what I really want to do with my life. And at the top of the list was be able to save people emotionally and physically. Whoa. Um be able to save people emotionally and physically. That's wow. Yeah, and that's what I've been working on for the past like five years. So I and I have, and I'm really proud of that. I've gotten certified as EMT, I'm working in the ER, I'm starting chaplain training in the fall. Um, like I'm doing it and loving it. Um and I but I think uh yeah, again, just kind of come most alive. Um helping somebody individually transition emotionally um is where I feel great. So I'll two examples super quick. I was on the ambulance and um a woman had been ejected from her vehicle. Um she was trying to take the wheel over from her partner, so probably some domestic violence happening there or something of that nature. And uh she was having a panic attack on the ambulance, and all the other medics were really focused on like stabilizing her, and she just stared me straight in the eyes and she was like, I'm having a panic, like I am panicking. And it was really cool. And Collette, I feel like Collette was my first like chaplain trainer supervisor, would be really proud because I created like a container, I like to call them containers, like between her and myself, and just was like, All right, like let's just take four deep breaths together. And we did a breathing exercise in the middle of the chaos, and I'll never forget just like she and she settled down, she's like, Thank you. And that was like that. Wow, that's what I want to do. I don't care how I have to do it, but like that's what I want to do with individuals. And I'm also really um interested in helping collective societies transition from disaster, destruction through the recovery process.

Colette 54:24

Yeah.

Rhys 54:25

So, like, how do you do that with an individual? And then how you do

Crisis Care And Disaster Recovery

Rhys 54:28

that collectively. And I think a lot of that comes from growing up and having um 9-11 happen in my lifetime, Hurricane Katrina, um, COVID, and just being like, how do you like we didn't did we do a good job as a society of like marking our um fallout and recovery from those huge events? And what does that noes that look like? Well, and even I might even argue like 9-11, like as a country, like I think we did a pretty okay job of like we have remembrances every year. Yeah, that's true. And we did a pretty good job of like formalizing that um as a country. And you know, of course, I know that there's a lot of maybe debate and and discussion around that. Um, but COVID. Oh like I rem I've always thought like, well, wait a minute, did we mark the end of that and like the trauma that that like we all just feels like collectively we just blew past it, and I know that half people don't even think it actually happened.

Sam 55:29

Yeah. Um, and I just find that bizarre. Um I we're in well, I think it was because it was so there was there was a clear beginning, but there really hasn't been a a very clear end.

Rhys 55:41

Right. And like people, you know, yeah, it still exists. And so I I just I find like my structure-y brain too really like gets really excited about the idea of like how you bring formal structure to recovery. Yeah.

Sam 55:55

Um I want to ask a poignant question, and you haven't answered this yet, but I'm I'm I'm because that's that that is not like a light thing that you want to be remembered for or work. So and that and I would think that would take an enormous amount of personal work to and I'm not gonna ask like every single thing you do, but but like what is maybe container is not the right word, but like what is a practice you do, uh, or a ritual, whatever you want to call it, uh that that helps you maybe it's your number one thing that you do that always helps you be ready for that, um, or reset or heal. Because I mean, we're we're probably blowing by that it's like you you s you still pick up garbage from these things that you have to deal with. So what's your number one thing that helps you actually continue to do this work, which is kind of like the back half of the question.

Rhys 56:50

Yeah. Um, well, I think the first thing that pops in mind is like I feel like there is I I chaplain training feels like I can help with this. I feel like I would like to further understand my motivations for wanting to be remembered for that and wanting to do that work. Sometimes I wonder, is there something wrong? I don't want to say wrong. Is there something deeply um like why am I motivated to do the work? Um, and am I trying to heal a part of myself through this process? And I want to be careful of that.

Colette 57:21

Oh no. Does it matter though? Does it matter, Reese, though? Like if you wanted if you want to do that to heal something in yourself.

Brenda 57:31

That was my question, by the way.

Rhys 57:33

I was hoping you would say something like that. It's probably not, and I'm probably shaming myself in some way for it. Um even if it did, like, would I stop doing it? Probably not. Yeah.

Sam 57:47

I don't know. Well, wouldn't it be it's kind of like what you were talking about, Colette, in a way. It's like it's not that you want to do it, it's it's maybe the reciprocation or the expectation of what you expect out of it, maybe.

Colette 58:01

Yeah, that that I think would be something to be more concerned about. But the actual motivation of doing it, you know, is not about that. I I think the reason my um my time as a uh mental health chaplain and and hospital chaplain pal working in the medical system has ended is not just because of my medical trauma, but because there's something in me that I have found completion with. I did it for a decade. I don't I it it's not this uh craving that I have anymore because I think I found what I needed to find in those spaces. I was deeply healed by working with veterans with PTSD who had their brothers die, you know. I was somebody who had my PTSD there, PT, very different, but there was a lot of similarity. I learned about moral injury, healed a lot of my own moral injury in that process. And like so you may I I think you may be drawn to the work because there's something in you that that you're working for.

Rhys 59:09

Well, I think that's maybe that's the better question. Is I think my peer is is it an appropriate thing to engage in work in order to personally heal, in addition to helping people?

Brenda 59:19

No, I don't think so at all. Yeah.

Sam 59:21

See, it's a that's this old philosophical thing. It's like, is there anything s any such thing as true altruism? Right.

Brenda 59:28

Who cares?

Sam 59:29

Yeah, yeah. I know.

Brenda 59:31

If you're doing the good work, then getting something out of that just makes it that much better. Yeah.

Rhys 59:39

And I do love it. Oh my god. See? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's something it's it really brings me a lot of joy.

Sam 59:45

I mean, when you hear about these, you know, the idea of miracles or healing or, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. You know, I think we get all woo-woo about it, which is fine. But I think like what you're talking about literally taking what how long did that interaction last with that lady?

Rhys 1:00:04

45 seconds.

Sam 1:00:05

45 seconds. You took f a minute out of out of out of your time, and you there's really no other way to say it. You healed her. You healed her. Which is miraculous with with breath and one minute.

Rhys 1:00:21

Yeah, and I did And how was that bad? It's so good. I mean, I did that the other day with somebody, and just um like I mean, any anybody who is a decent human can do these things, but it is fun to get trained in it. It's like trained in um crisis prevention or price prevention intervention. Yeah. And um, like the first thing they're saying is just like, you know, make somebody's got to feel safe and they have to feel supported before they can ever make any decisions. And gosh, is that true? I mean, you can apply that in our own life. And she was panicking and panicking, and it's really fun to um know that to have that knowledge because I recognized that. And she was having a um episode of likely schizophrenia. Oh, and um it was fun, it was enjoyable to just be able to just comfort her and let her know that she was safe because it enabled the healing process. And I think that's really fascinating to me. It is. Um, and I think in healthcare, especially like the idea of healthcare, you think medicine, physical medicine and uh EKGs and heart rhythms and these things, and there is the unseen but equally important psychological and emotional impact that is occurring to that person and spiritual, and spiritual that's extraordinarily important because once we stabilize that patient, excellent, they're good and they're stable, and that's an event. Have we stabilized them spiritually and emotionally? Because that's going to impact them the rest of their life. And but we can, it's not going, it's not a negative death sentence of PTSD necessarily, for example, if you can intervene in the right ways in the right time.

Sam 1:02:07

I actually think I just read an article, uh, it was a white paper, about um PTSD, about formation of it. And I I think it was, and I can't remember the exact time frame, but the the general rule of it or the general findings of it was if somebody is um after an event or shortly after an event is around somebody that makes them feel safe and secure, they have significantly reduced chances of developing long-term PSD and trauma.

Rhys 1:02:34

Yeah, yep. I think we were just talking about that yesterday.

Sam 1:02:36

Yep, yep, yep, yeah.

Rhys 1:02:37

So that's what I hope to get, you know for. So hopefully in a few years, y'all will see me on the international stage doing these this work. Well, I'm glad I never articulated out loud. It's a little vulnerable because that's always been my dream. Well, now I'm feeling vulnerable. I've said all of that, but well, we're putting it up.

Sam 1:02:52

Hey, remember when we were setting up, you said we were gonna start on time and we did it. Now you you you now you would you said this in the world and it'll happen. That's what happens.

Rhys 1:03:00

No, it will happen. Um, I don't anyway.

Sam 1:03:06

That was good, thank you.

David 1:03:07

I want to ask though. Um because you talked about like the events, the major events that everybody has been experiencing. Um I'm wondering if you if you had that sort of influence or w however you envision it, where you had that power to create something that spoke to what you're talking about. Um what would that be? Have you invested in creating that thing? Um you may not have the a platform you may or may not have a platform right now for it, but just putting that energy into it. Have you have you explored that?

Rhys 1:03:48

The uh chaplain clinical calling. Definitely. And that's what I'm excited about. I think that's that's probably why I'm ready to talk about it.

Sam 1:03:57

Um so yeah, because I yeah, like I said, I just got um spent last year doing EMS and then now working in the hospital, just started that work and then doing chaplain with well I don't want to take away your story, but you you're doing something practically as well in disaster management with the That is true, too.

Rhys 1:04:17

I yeah, I just started working with Team Recon. Awesome. They're a veteran organized led organization that does disaster response. And um they're based in Los Angeles, but they do it across the country and also internationally. And I start volunteering with them and have a potential gig doing um photography for them at various disaster sites in the United States.

Sam 1:04:40

You mean maybe being a team somewhere and like kind of what you're saying? Yeah. A team? Yeah, you're you're out there and you're maybe taking pictures, but you're gonna have opportunities.

Rhys 1:04:50

Yes.

Sam 1:04:51

Yeah.

Rhys 1:04:51

Yeah. And that's kind of my long-term goal. Hopefully, growth is is with them or some somewhere organization.

David 1:04:59

So you have some traction in what you're trying to leave behind.

Rhys 1:05:04

Mm-hmm. Yes. And I think my learning is it takes longer than because I two years ago I was in the corporate world project management, and I left to pursue this dream, and I thought that I would be like much farther along by now. I'm like, I think I'm just getting started. Yeah. Oh no. But I'm like, you know, that's the beauty of something that really gives you joy is when you find it, you really do feel like I could spend the rest of my life doing this, and that would be okay.

Sam 1:05:31

Yeah. Um Well, good things rarely are instantly built. Good things take time, patience. Yeah. A lot of tears.

Rhys 1:05:42

And I do lastly, uh, because I there's so much other stuff I talk about, but I do also hope to um make somebody else feel incredibly loved in a lifetime. Uh and I hope that I've already done that with the people that I've hated for, so to speak. But I think when I say that, I mean yes. Partner and I think a child. Like and I think I do do that with my niece, and I would love to do that with a child. I think even letting somebody else know how incredibly beloved they are is really fulfilling. Oh. I hope I get to do that and feel that by the way.

Sam 1:06:18

Well, it's out in the universe now, it's gonna happen. Well done. Uh oh.

Brenda 1:06:28

Um

Searching For Calling After Parenting

Brenda 1:06:29

boy, I y'all have really late to put the gauntlet down here.

Sam 1:06:34

Don't be intimidated. You do as much as you intimidated.

Brenda 1:06:39

Um so I I sort of started to think about there's a difference between what if I died today I would be people would think about me or say about me or whatever. And if and what I would want to add to that. Oh um so I think if I if I died today and people were talking at my funeral, um I I think things like strong, like strength and maybe wisdom and clear-headed and definitely funny would come because I think that's what people think about that's what people have told me that they think about me. Those things, those words have been used, and I'm very proud of that. Those are all good things. What I but what what I started thinking about is because I feel like I've just started in the last three or four years in the next phase of my life. My husband passed away in 2018. Um, my kids are all grown and flown and fabulous. Um so the other thing is I have been a really good mom. I'm a good mom. And they, you know, and they're great humans. Um but I've never found that thing. Like if I'm supposed to have a calling, I don't have a clue what it is. And I'm I'm looking for that to find a place to truly make a difference. And I just don't know what that is yet. So I don't think I don't think I know exactly yet, except, you know, I hope someday when I'm when I'm gone in you know 30 or 40 years, someone say, Boy, look, did you see what she did? Or she finally found the place where she was supposed to be to make because I really do want to make a difference in the world. I just don't know what that is yet.

Colette 1:08:51

Yeah. Do you have a longing attached at all? Is there something that you're longing to do?

Brenda 1:08:58

Um, when I think about I I'd like I think everyone should always have food. And that's I just think that's really hugely important for children, for everybody tonight. No one should have to stress over where they're gonna eat or be able to feed their kids or anything like that. So I do we have a strong feeling it has something to do with with food and getting food out there and getting food available. And so I've done a little bit of work with the food bank and I donate to the food bank and I um but it doesn't feel quite right. It's something, but it's not um I feel like there's more.

Sam 1:09:49

Is is it when you when you're in that situation serving, is it is it the proximity to people? Uh like to the uh what I mean is I think that it's part of it.

Brenda 1:09:59

It that part is stressful to me sometimes because um so I am someone who has I did not grow up with money. I but I have never truly never had a moment in my life when there was no one to go to. I have had people to fall back on my whole life. I you know, I ne I would never have to spend a night on the streets, I would never have to worry about truly going hungry, you know. Um so I've always had a safety net. And I sometimes feel again, here comes that word, intimidated, but I I always question myself and do I really have what it takes to really talk to somebody and try to help them and try to and and sometimes and that that people aren't always looking for help. People are often looking for somebody just to talk to.

Colette 1:11:09

Yeah.

Brenda 1:11:09

And I'm trying to get better at that because I do think that that's important.

Sam 1:11:15

What's intimidating is do you feel like a drive to fix it, or you feel like you won't be able to provide them what they need, or that I won't be able to provide them intellectually with really talking to them in a way that's real and that helps them. Hmm. Interesting. Because I don't get that from you at all.

Brenda 1:11:45

It's my my insecurities are just like I want to say that they're deep, but they're right here.

Sam 1:11:51

Yeah. Well, that means they're almost out. Everybody she uh uh she she pointed to her throat, so that means we're almost there.

Brenda 1:12:01

So that's what this was about. It's my intervention, isn't it?

Sam 1:12:08

Well, okay, okay. I definitely need to stop button.

Brenda 1:12:11

I think I need to get Marissa's number.

Colette 1:12:14

Oh honestly, no, I I really want to talk to you about clinical pastoral education. Um, so yeah, that's some of the work that I do is like help is process education where people are exploring their their sense of calling and discernment, discerning their values and how do they want to live them out. And you're like the ideal kind of student who's like hungry for that and already doing that work. Um, because I think in my at least in my own experience, you you really can't find it until you start getting your hands dirty and trying a bunch of different things. And um I I think a lot of the most people struggle with like I want to help people, but I don't I don't know if my presence is enough. One it is a lot, and it and it is often enough, but there are some skills that can be taught um around listening and caregiving that can give you more confidence in your ability to um to be present with people.

Brenda 1:13:22

I definitely need to be taught how to listen more and respond less.

Colette 1:13:28

Yeah. I call it listen deeply um so that you can respond attentively is uh kind of the goal of Right. That's that what did you say again? Listen deeply so that you can respond attentively. Yeah. That's good.

Rhys 1:13:49

Also I remember in um, I think when I started in S, they were saying training is good, and I totally agree with it competently. Um I'm all for it doing that myself. But they're also saying, like, you know how to care for people that have friends and those you love. And if you ever just fail to know what to do, act like that. And I was like, that is so helpful. You know what I mean? Like with strangers, we think I can't but really with everything I'm experiencing, like people just want to be heard, want to be seen. And even if you just like I know we talked about like naming emotions isn't always the best, but just saying like you really helped me with that in chaplaincy is that sounds really hard. Yeah. Sometimes it's I'm trying to fix it, I'm not trying to give you advice. That just sounds really fucking hard. And that's almost always a great starting point, almost even enough sometimes.

Sam 1:14:44

Sometimes even just asking how well, like, what are you feeling, right? Like, what are you feeling? Or like I notice you're angry. Like, what is what is what is that what's going on with that?

Colette 1:14:54

And I wonder about this, like, you want a sense of of calling, Brenda. Um it makes me wonder what related to this question, what do you think your life means? Because what you're called to I'm calling for everyone. Um I'm not answering that. That is what my therapist is always asking me. She's an existentialist. Um, but that sometimes calling gets wrapped up into a purpose, and that there's this image of this thing that that you very specifically had to do, but we're not all Reese. Yeah. Like I I don't necessarily anymore have a clear picture of what um what my calling looks like on the ground. I just that's why kindness is my calling. You know, uh uh it's more about a value that guides my life rather than uh a goal. If that resonates at all.

Brenda 1:16:02

Um I think that I have in my life felt selfish. Um I also have obviously a a a lack of confidence in myself to be a which would surprise I think some people because I do think I come off to most people as being confident, but it's really very shallow. Um yeah, I don't know.

Sam 1:16:42

Yeah, I don't think anybody here can answer.

Colette 1:16:44

I mean, Colette's managed to do pretty good, but that's this is yeah, these are these are the hard questions I think uh that are behind questions like this. It's like, what do you want to be remembered for? I'm like, what do you want your life to mean? Um, but I think everything you've already described about your life thus far is worthy, you know, and to be a good to be not just a good mother, but a great mother with fabulous children. Oh, yeah. What a gift to the world, you know. Um, but I also understand like once you're an empty nester, you kind of come you you have to face your own identity again that you're not just a mother. Well, she was good at Pilates.

Brenda 1:17:21

Who cares? Yeah, you know, I don't think there's enough of the journey.

Sam 1:17:24

There's not enough attention to that. Like I was I was talking to Morgan about that. I think probably Mother's Day and Father's Day this year hit me, you know, because both my kids are grown. Yeah. And it's like um, I don't know how to be. I've been a dad since I was 19. I'm 51. Like I my whole entire adult life has been a parent. And I'm not a parent, and I'm not gonna be a parent, maybe a grandparent one day. And it's like I never realized how much that and it's and it I never realized how much it bothers me that that I don't have that answer, and it's it I just it just kinda kind of came to the surface fairly recently.

Colette 1:17:59

Yeah, it's it's a real tension, but I don't think I I think a lot of people avoid or think, oh, you know Well, you had this really tangible calling being a good parent that you could actually see the outcome for and um in a in in kind of a metric of in some ways a metric of success based on like how good of a person your kids are. Yeah, you know, and and to not have that external locus of focus like to know if it's going well or not.

Sam 1:18:31

And validation, yeah.

Colette 1:18:33

Yeah, it it it puts you on shaky ground for sure. But it makes sense to me that maybe you don't feel confident in yourself, either one of you, because um the way that you you were validated is is shifting. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rhys 1:18:50

Well, and I feel like I can relate too, but I like maybe asking what do you think about asking the question of what type of posture do I want to have in the world? What type of energy do I want to bring to the world can be an easier place to start. So like switching from a goal to a value. Yeah, yeah, and exactly what was saying, like what type of posture do I want to have in the world? I think for a long time my posture was I was known as the go-getter, the doer, the successful financially everything person. Um, and that served me for a while, but eventually it didn't. Um so when in lieu of when all of that was gone, who was I? It was very disorienting. And even the goal that I had to be this kind of maybe international chaplain or whatnot was almost not enough at the time. It's like I even in that, how do I want to occupy spaces that I'm in? Um, and it it for me it came down to I want to be known as kind of this person who creates create calm out of chaos, but also like who takes care of themselves and is able to have much more of a sustainable life and ministry and what I do. Um, and that comes down to that's why now the parts of like me wanting to have fun and all of that are coming to play because that's the stuff I need to fuel it.

Brenda 1:20:14

And I think I'm on the opposite end of that. I think part of this is for me is I feel like everything I do now is for myself. And I need to get away from myself to a point and figure out how to do something for other people that doesn't really bring me, doesn't bring me anything besides, you know, the purpose. The purpose of it.

Rhys 1:20:40

And I think I'm a little bit meaning, you know, no big deal. I am kind of a firm believer that the universe, God, whomever you believe in, will open that for you in the present moment. I think that it's really easy to, um, or maybe not easy, to put together the dream board, the vision board, and say, I want to be this in three years. Um, I don't think that's how I even came to my understanding of what I want to do. I think what I came was I said yes to Chaplaincy at Ashner and met Collette, who is the best, and I just started to go into those hospital rooms, and then I f and I saw there might people who came into my path who deeply needed somebody to just hold their hug or listen to them. And then I found the energy of oh, this feels really good. And maybe even uh sorry to be like coachy a little, but like uh if you're driving home today and you see somebody in need, a homeless person, maybe something in there is trying to teach you something. I think that's um starting with what's in front of you. Start from where that Caitlin Clark is a basketball player. Oh yeah. And she said, start with where you stand. And I was like, yes. Starting where you're standing instead of maybe trying to um logic it forward.

Brenda 1:22:01

And to be fair with myself, um, my life really changed in the last few years. And I had some health issues and some things, and so becoming more fit and becoming, you know, like I joke about Pilates, but it's been a great thing for me in my life. And and I so I really did have to spend those years working on myself to get myself stronger, both physically and emotionally and spiritually. Um, but it's just not enough now. And so it's time to level up.

Rhys 1:22:34

Oh wow, and honestly, if Pilates has brought you healing, and maybe, maybe I'm it that might be part of the ideas and strengths.

Brenda 1:22:43

I do Pilates Reformer, so it's not like you can just take that and go somewhere. You can't just set up a mat in a park, you know.

Rhys 1:22:50

But there might be people who need Pilates Reformer, I'm just saying. Yeah. They say, what do they say? Claire, you might be like, oh shosh, but they say um your calling is where your gladness meets the greatest need. Like where your joy and your gladness meets the need of the world is where your calling is.

Sam 1:23:06

Well, I I I said this because we're tape we're recording this uh actually after the gat the main gathering, which is a little different. But uh, I'm sure most everybody has heard of that movie Chariots of Fire. Yeah. Have you heard of it? Have you guys heard of it? It's a it's a document, it's an old movie. Uh old in the sense of us oldies, you know, uh 80s, wasn't it? I think it was. And uh it was it was a uh uh a biography of uh uh an English marathon runner, I remember correctly. And there's a whole bunch of stuff to it, but uh, you know, he was uh his particular faith tradition was he was a Christian, but he I love how he uh articulated how he knew the right like what was the right thing for him to do. He says, uh, because running to him was his purpose. And uh and he said uh I can feel God's pleasure when I run. And and you can insert anything you want in there. But I I mean I I think it would be like fulfillment. There's something that clicks, it just feels right. Uh yeah, and I think we're we've got more of it. Yeah, yeah. It's like a hit.

Rhys 1:24:13

Yeah, it really hit that way, but it's gosh. Um just to be mindful of time. Yeah, I'm worried about it. Anybody want to open it up to what they would like to use if you remember?

David 1:24:27

Yeah, sure. I'll I'll share if you're um yeah, please. Yeah, okay.

Responsibility And A 500-Year Vision

David 1:24:32

Um yeah, so for me, uh it's a couple things that I it was a good question.

Sam 1:24:40

Oh well, everybody voted on it. I I did not do it. Uh I was just one of three questions, and this is what they picked.

David 1:24:47

Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, so I certainly think about two things um inherent in the question. One is the mortality. Um you know, what do you want to be remembered for? It's it's uh essentially asking when you're gone. Yeah, what's what is left. Um and I like that. Uh some of the things that I've been looking into lately has been um I say lately, it's been over a year now, but um uh yoga and uh meditation and um and some of the practices that I've been learning have been like actually focusing on our m on my mortality. Oh mento mori. Yes. Yeah, so this is this is what is always present, all right. The fact that nothing is is guaranteed. So I just like that sort of question. It's a daily sort of thing, um, but long term um inherent in the question I always think I also think about ego. Ooh. Um because it's asking me what do I want to be remembered for, but if I'm gone, why am I what am I attached? Yeah, yeah. So I I um the ego part of me when I think about that, I don't I don't like that because I I'm not necessarily a center of attention type of person, anyway. Um so I I sort of was juggling these two concepts in inherent in the conversation in the question. And the question I feel that is more suited for me is like more about the impact that I leave.

Sam 1:26:42

Yeah.

David 1:26:42

Uh which is kind of the same thing.

Sam 1:26:44

It is.

David 1:26:45

Um and when I think about that, um, I think about the arc of generations and where I fit in on this my family's legacy, essentially. Um and the responsibility, that word right there.

Sam 1:27:07

Interesting.

David 1:27:08

Where I fit or where I am, I am where I am, and people have come and they've passed batons, and here I am, I'm holding a baton. So I'm responsible now for what happens, you know, uh on this journey of all of these folks that are playing a part in making the world better. Okay. So these are this is the sort of base that I'm thinking about um when I consider it. And the one thing that sticks out to me is this responsibility to others after me, uh, particularly in my line. Of course, I'm there's folks who aren't family that I feel responsible to. Um, but my family in particular. Because I think about my history. My I I come from my father, is a immigrant from Trinidad. in Tobago. Shout out to Omar Caribbeans. Let's say and um he came to the states and um you know he from how he grew up it was it was very kind of country and um not wealthy um and hustling right he came to the states to try to make a better way for himself and he yeah he was just trying to make it and so I don't take that lightly I I look at my grandmother and what she did for him and her other nine children. Nine and the values she lived out and how everybody in this sort of arc is doing their part. It's not that my grandmother was like oh look at me I've raised you know ten wonderful children or my father was like look at me I moved to the States and didn't it's never been like that. So I like I like to know that I'm like in this um this powerful position to do what I can for the next generation. So I think about yeah finances is a big thing. I want to be able to set up something that uh really makes it easier for my future generations to bring out whatever they want to bring out in their life. And I noticed that finances is at least in my perspective uh man if money wasn't a thing right is the question you know that's half the reason I think I white like Star Trek because there's no money in Star Trek.

Sam 1:29:46

I never noticed that that's past that yeah there's no money everything everybody has everything they want in the Federation. Yep. Do we want to start the Federation?

David 1:29:58

I mean I I felt scotted a little yeah so um I man I I'm just trying to find ways and I'm also entrepreneur also anyway so just trying to find ways to set up the next generation um so that they can really bring out whatever they need to whatever they need to bring out so they can think less about that and think more about um their what makes them them their calling their thing um and that really touches on me.

Sam 1:30:36

So I I it's this word of responsibility like I know I'm in this I'm playing this part not playing I'm I'm living this part um and I don't take it lightly so you because you mentioned because you were born in the States though right yes okay so but that doesn't matter because you're culturally still culturally yeah very do you think that's your culture or do you think that's just inherent to your parents or a mixture of both or or just you this this is what it That's a good question.

David 1:31:04

I think some of it is cultural because yes I think a lot of people not just Trinidad but anywhere in that's not America they look at America like land of opportunity you know that's the thing. So culturally there is this want to um to better their family right um so there's some of that but I don't I don't know what it is. Maybe it is all culture. I don't know.

Sam 1:31:31

Where do you think you rec when do you do you recall how uh like a time in your life or how old you were when you like that clicked in your head this had to be probably about a year and a half ago.

David 1:31:46

Oh so very recent. Yeah it's always been building but man it crystallized in in one day I woke up and I kind of was thinking about these thoughts anyway um I'll I'll just share this so what dropped on me was um a 500 year vision.

Rhys 1:32:05

Whoa you better take care of yourself.

David 1:32:09

Yeah obviously I won't be here for the 500 years but um um 500 years sounds like a lot but it's not you know you think about one generation if if one generation lives for a hundred years which my five people yeah it's it's actually not that many um but trying to do what I can on the ground to look have that sort of scope that distance of um what can I do to to get that going get that fulfilled which I think I mean I guess in a way my grandmother my grand my father have already started that but I'm it just dropped on me one day and I'm like yeah this is this is what I've got to do.

Brenda 1:33:01

Are you a father?

David 1:33:02

No.

Brenda 1:33:03

Oh that's interesting then yeah because you're not right but you know a lot of times that will hit when you have your own children and you're trying to you know think how can you help set them up for success which you can't by the way except by being um by giving them someone to look up to.

Colette 1:33:27

Yeah.

Brenda 1:33:28

And even that but usually those questions come when you have you know when you have that and you're looking at it every day. How can you not set them up for success so much like not monetary success or whatever but just being happy in their lives and figuring out yes what they're supposed to do.

David 1:33:47

Yes. And I I think parenting is important but if you think about parenting I don't view children as like um they're this thing that we have to control or I mean yes we have to guide them right but they are people.

Brenda 1:34:06

Yeah right absolutely autonomous people. It's it's interesting because you're coming from a place of not when you say the the next generation not your generation but the generation the people who are coming after us not my people who are coming after us.

Colette 1:34:24

Right?

Brenda 1:34:24

Yeah so I think that's really interesting.

Colette 1:34:28

Yeah I I appreciate you bringing that up Brenda because also as you were talking I wonder what better means it feels so amorphous um and I appreciate the the painting the picture about the generation uh what are you a millennial? Yes so you're like talking about like Gen Z and Gen Alpha Gen Alpha I guess so yeah I don't even know what's after that yeah yeah um yeah and all those that will come after us right um yeah I'm curious do you have a sense for what you mean by better not just in like a fiscal sense because I think we'd all want like yeah we'd all like some a little bit of socialism in Star Trek and no money having to deal with and like the people would just be safe and secure and live in a stable environment but well there's a reality you know financial security is very real yes we've talked about that very real and if I may just say this before you respond, sorry.

Brenda 1:35:32

Um it's something I've thought of since AI has become so prevalent and they talk about it all the time of taking jobs and making things you know that AI will make things now and engineer things now and and what will the next generation have to accomplish if AI is doing everything and and will will then if we start having like I'm not against what do you call it national income or it's it's not quite oh the universal basic income universal basic income will people have every anything to work toward and to learn and become smarter and make things better and how does that affect the world if it's AI doing that and not people but anyway sorry that I do I seriously digress.

Sam 1:36:24

That's so no that's no that's a really good question.

David 1:36:28

Can you remind me of your question you said what is better.

Colette 1:36:30

Yeah what do you mean by better that you want to come to have it better.

Self-Awareness, Spirituality, And Society

David 1:36:36

Mm-hmm the better part for me thank you for the question because yeah it's almost like I always have to learn how to articulate more and more about what this is uh better to me I'm I'm actually learning is yeah finances is good that is part of it but wow this world that has opened up to me with yoga and meditation um and self-awareness that's actually what it actually means to me now um that I mean we're all doing this right we're all here we're all living and this bodies that we have has been developing over eons millions of years and it's the most powerful thing that we have this body that has you know here we are and we're living it which it was just given to us we didn't earn it was just here we are with this intensely our meticulous machine the brain okay so here we are with this how do we handle this I don't I don't think we there is no license no test no yeah no it's just like you we can just make people and then like good luck. Yeah we have to we work harder for a damn driver's license that's right I'm not saying we should start licensing people to have kids maybe we should but that's what the Nazis think that's fair that's fair sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry yeah so I would love to and I am going deeper into what it means to be able to handle this machinery um both physical mental spiritual emotional energy wise all of that to be in alignment to get to what is what what happens when I'm all aligned in those different ways that's that's what better to me is and if I can learn how to do that it's it seems like a lot but I have a guide um so I have to mention his name Sadguru he's uh a big guy on social media you've probably heard of him um but man his stuff is it's just amazing it's incredible uh to help guide me towards that alignment and so on that path that to me is what better means if I can now pass that on to the next generation my my offspring yeah that's would you say the gift would be self-awareness or the ability to evolve in your self-awareness? Well I think this is basic for everyone everyone should have this but it's it's like not happening.

Sam 1:39:26

The there's actually statistics it's the the general what I the consensus I saw is like about 10% of the people on the globe are actually self-aware. That's now see and I don't like it because there's there's because I I I I've experienced in my life where I thought oh I'm self-aware and then you know how it is. Then you take a couple steps down and something else happens like oh I was not self-aware at all. And then you take more steps like oh I wasn't self-aware then either. So I think it's a it's a progression as an evolution. Yeah. But um I I think about that a lot as like what if the better like leaving the world a better place is leaving the world so people know how to be self-aware. And I I often wonder if like that's actually the human endeavor is is is self-awareness. Yes. And I've because I go back to that self-fulness.

Rhys 1:40:19

Yes. I think it's an evolution of collective consciousness. Yes. It's like um can we as society get ourselves to the next level of enlightened growth so that there is greater peace existence. Yes. And I think it starts at the individual level you know and I yeah if only 10% of us are invested in that that is whoa. Yeah and every thing between you and Brenda that I keep hearing that's so interesting and cool is like that's what I was hearing David when you were speaking is like what is this thing I'm supposed to leave but it does come back full circle to what within you is changing and finding joy. Yeah. And then once you understand and can feel that that is the gift I think yeah you know um because truly I do believe the world is net a better place when we're all living into our truest reflection of creation and like it's creative energy. Yeah generally um because that's why we're here.

David 1:41:26

I mean that's at least that's my opinion like we're not meant to be herd followers like we're all supposed to tap into our unique yes yes that's right that's right that's right how could we if you believe in a higher power how could we come from a higher power and you know if we're if we're in this sort of image this is what I sort of I agree I agree. We have this spark then we have this thing in us that we need to bring out and so if we need to bring it out then there's hurdles in the way what are the hurdles um I gotta read this this quote um from from Sadguru he says um how you are within yourself must be determined by you that is what being spiritual means.

Rhys 1:42:14

Yep. Dude I'm gonna have to steal that from you and I think that's why religion for us and all that is such a hard thing to agree with yeah because it's so externally focused.

Sam 1:42:24

Yes yes yeah I have a whole thing to say about well spirituality I I I that's why I don't spirituality to me is I think the goal religion is to is the you have a boundary a bounded uh it's too boundried because the you're bound you're bound in these rules to understand what self-awareness is and that's fine but there's a larger yes you know awareness and it doesn't negate the the the practice or the religion or whatever. In fact I I would argue it enhances it it in and it makes it more fully what it is supposed to be.

Colette 1:43:04

So I I just want to bring in a difference about this that I'm curious about as as y'all were talking about like self-awareness uh and it happens in my work at the the circle of work and folks that I deal with the self-awareness is this you know all-encompassing goal to attain um but what happens when what happens when somebody doesn't reach it the way you think they did should or when they don't define it the same way that you that you think it should be defined um because even the term self-awareness is incredibly individualistic um whereas I'm I'm very also interested in like collective awareness. Oh um just thinking about recovery after the pandemic or Katrina or 9-11 it's like you know what is post-traumatic growth look like for a society and a culture and not just for individuals and how do we do that in a way that doesn't like um like spiritual wash everyone to to have to attain this kind of enlightened sense of self um in in one way. Like that's always been my struggle um even in my own work that I want my students to be self-aware uh but I have to kind of like surrender control um and expectation of what I think that will look like so I'm curious if if you have a you have a sense of expectation of yourself of what that would look like um or are you kind of on the journey yeah so I mean rabbit hole goes deep and I know we're crushed on time here but um consciousness is the word I think that we're is really the goal right if we can be fully conscious oh my god yeah so I do think that it is personal I don't think although yes there's this thought we can have about a collective consciousness I don't I don't know that that's a focus I think that will happen when I am conscious.

David 1:45:26

Ah and then you become conscious. Yes and then the others become conscious. Yeah it's what's inherent in it's inherent yeah all right so I yeah I I'm personally not too concerned about that. I I have enough on my own uh problems that I need to work through to become conscious. So that's all I really care about.

Colette 1:45:47

Well isn't that really kind of what with chaplaincy work with it is the goal is for your self-awareness because that helps you actually approach people better and care for people better in the sense of and I and what I wouldn't call it chaplaincy I would just call it like human beings being a a caregiver yeah being a good person um is like reflecting on how you are affecting the people around you uh I would to me I would boil that down to just good humanness yeah rather than good anything else but I appreciate what you just the the responsibility you're taking for yourself. Yes David I hear that a lot I just want to reflect that back um because that's something a value of mine is like I am responsible for me and I'm going to surrender any illusion of control that I can that I can affect uh anyone in a direction that I think that I deem as necessary or worthy.

David 1:46:44

Yes absolutely absolutely because okay sorry yeah because like why what are we getting this idea to control what is that what what do we get when we it let let's say let's say we could control it what does that do for us you know that's it that's again goes to the external right so it to me is the personal um the personal work the inner work because again that is a lot we've got these cycles we've got these patterns our mind will do different things um our bodies will do different things um so just trying to be conscious of those things and you said this word responsibility um one of the things Sadhguru talks about is actually I've learned I'm actually responsible for everything I'm not responsible for me not that this and not that that dichotomy actually creates stress oh um so it's actually that if you can think of if you can think of your child imagine your child passing away the sadness that would be involved with that and then blow that up to um anything a bird having the same sort of emotion same sort of um depth and then spread that out to the world that is the level of responsibility to feel um when we're talking about responsibility now over at first it's gonna be overwhelming to think in that manner like anything passing away is heavy but that's the level of depth that we ought to feel for the world. And then you'll start to um uh what's the word level out you you'll walk with this presence this knowing this mortality this care for everything. Yeah and you become that yeah I'm with you.

Rhys 1:48:57

Yeah I also think really there is you will know you're doing it the appropriate way. And what I mean by this is there can an ego that says oh I can impact people and change. Yeah yeah but then when I think what you're describing is really beautiful um we had this homeless man the other day who came into the hospital and he was covered in sores and this and the it felt like a gift more to me to get to be there with him. And then later came anger of all of society should be stopping to care for this person because all of us lose when somebody left to this level of physical pain and we're not all stopping to care about it.

Colette 1:49:40

Yeah.

Rhys 1:49:40

And I think that's a sacred anger that is deserves yes voice. Yes. And so I actually kind of I don't know I don't think this is what you're but like we should be taking responsibility not only for ourselves and for channeling the unjust The anger we feel for unjust. Yeah unjustness in society to help others. I mean it's an active it is active. Yes, yes.

Sam 1:50:12

I um the the image I use a lot is the flow. And how I always say that is like like a flow is like where there's a fully giving and a fully receiving in whatever it is. It's easier to do it with people, I think. But but and I think it is uh there is a a a level of like like a bird or or nature, or but there is like like even concepts or like how you engage in society of just like is this am I in the flow with fully giving and fully receiving? And I've like I said, I've I've I I uh I'm still ultimately the way I was, you know, way my brain's uh wired, it's um that I don't think I'm I hope I can do that all the time, but uh I do know that I've hit moments where I've got to experience that. And it validates it's like, oh, it's real. I just gotta figure out how to do it all the time. You know, which is that's a whole other ball of wax.

Colette 1:51:09

Yeah.

Sam 1:51:11

Um I would um the only thing I would say is uh I I because actually it's funny you brought it up because when we talked about it, that was uh world famous Craig Gabriel, our resident philosopher. Uh he brought that up as like this is actually a two there's two parts to this question, you know. There's two, you know, so you're you're right on. Um but I I I thought about that a lot, and um I I I I I kind of landed on the same thing of like uh a couple trite sayings, I guess. You know, it's like you're you're you're you're planting trees that you're never gonna sit in the shade under, uh or like uh Martin Luther King said, you know, the arc of the universe bends towards justice. And uh and inherent in all that is uh well the the the the universe bends because we bend it, or the tree is planted because we planted it. And so that's that's always for me is like I just I want to know that I I because I I obviously have already accepted that even probably after 50 years of that I'm I died, no one's gonna I don't I just don't exist. But what I did will exist nameless because when we all exist because of uh uh uh probably trillions of this point of people who have come before us who we exist in this world because of what they did. And I just want to be like similar to you in that same tradition of like I I I added to the world uh more than I subtracted. Yeah, and um I mean I I I think it's true. Uh and I and I uh I think the the part about self-awareness for me is like because what you were gonna say, uh David, was that I think there is a point where you can be overly self-aware, and it gets into navel gazing, and and you're just literally, oh god, I have a feeling. Let me write this down. Let me let me and it's just like like what did you say the other day? I don't want to like you were literally uh you were talking about that and you were uh experiencing something and and you it popped in because you're really good at self-reflection and it came up in your head, and you were just like, I don't got time for this. Like I have stuff to do. I you're like, I'm I'm sorry, I'm hugging you, I love you. We'll get to you later. Yeah, yes. It's like it's just like to find that balance of like I want to be self-aware, but yeah, you know, I don't also don't want to sit and just meticulously think about every single last thing. Because a point is it's like you just do that too much, yeah. Right.

David 1:53:44

Can I say one last thing?

AI, Art, And Human Nature

David 1:53:46

Yeah, please. I know Brenda asked me, it's Brenda, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um Brenda asked me about AI. Uh, just really quickly, um, I don't I'm not afraid of AI, and I don't think anyone should be, because if you think of any point in time, right, um industrial revolution, any sort of technology that comes about, there's this fear, and it has to do with diffusion of innovation. This is a book about this thick about people who adopt, right? Early adopters, mid-adopters, all these sort of categories. But basically, AI is just another technology that we have. Um, I'm not really concerned about it. I mean, we're in the beginning of it, but yeah, the the generations who will really be steeped in AI will figure out what to do with it.

Colette 1:54:30

Um I also think about like rich kids, what do they all end up doing? Making art. You know, like every need is met in the world, and what do they love to do? They make art. Like, I um I think the part of the human condition, which I really do think that needs to be a curious crew question, is like, what is the nature of the human? Um, because I still want to hear what people want to say. Um, but I think I think we're the creative impulse that that will still be present. Love it. And I think the impulse to make the world a better place will still be present in people.

Sam 1:55:06

Yeah. What'd you say?

Rhys 1:55:11

Empathy.

Sam 1:55:12

Yeah, empathy. Well, read more fiction books.

Rhys 1:55:15

We love empathy. Yeah.

Sam 1:55:17

Well, oh my gosh. Uh, this was great. We could talk some what's that? What'd you say? No, that's a study. Didn't you know that? Oh. Yeah. Reading fiction. People who read fiction are more empathetic.

Rhys 1:55:28

I thought you were just being like, oh, that's total bullshit. Keep reading fiction. No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, this is where uh I probably should have like read the room a little bit better.

Sam 1:55:39

Probably couched my things now a little bit better. But uh before we rack up, and we oh man, I'm gonna keep going.

Gathering The Good Takeaways

Sam 1:55:46

But um one last thing, it's our newest edition, Gathering the Good. You know, we talk about curiosity like it's a trait, and it is. Uh, but curiosity does things, it it opens things up, it connects people uh who might have never uh found uh each other. It it stretches the way we see the world, it stretches the way we see each other. It's it's it definitely stretches the way we see ourselves. And and that's what I keep noticing. That uh, I mean, there's only well, it's five of us, but at a usually there's a max of six at a table, uh, which means all the good that just happened right here, the the ideas, the books, the the the sayings, all those things. Um it's it's nobody else got to hear it. Well, these people get to hear this, but usually when we're in a setting, they don't get to hear it. So um I want to just to take a minute. I'm we're gonna collect everybody's uh notes but um and share them with everybody. But what is the one thing that that did stick out um to you guys in this particular conversation? And I'll I'll start by saying that um I mean I have too many highlights, but uh I I do think Colette, what you said was very um the the the idea about being motivated not by a goal so much as a value. Uh and I and when you said that that really I was like, oh shit. That's most of my goals. And and I'm thinking like, I wonder like what is the process of of taking some of those goals and and can they be turned into a value? That's that's much more of a pure, I think, maybe um motivator.

Colette 1:57:25

I uh really appreciated what you said David about the 500-year vision and the five gener thinking five generations because I like we'll probably see a couple of those generations getting born and I I don't know if I've ever thought that far out of like how but I do believe that we have that kind of impact. I just don't think I've ever really thought about it in that clear of a picture. So that's something I'm taking with me.

Sam 1:57:54

Great. Now we have to all have 500 year plants, David. I'm I'm hardened up doing the next five minutes.

Brenda 1:58:05

Um I think it it was Colette when you said listen deeply to respond and respond attentively. Because I I you've just made me realize that when I often when I am listening to someone, it's with the my head saying, How does this affect me? And not truly listening to what they're saying and how it affects them.

Rhys 1:58:35

My imperfect selfish self is gonna come out and say, I don't know, um, actually no, this has been a healing conversation, I would say um that dream that I'm seeking, I think what I'm realizing so much of it is to feel loved. Validated and finally kind of safe. And I was just I just spent I'm like as we're sitting here, I'm feeling a welling up of love. Because I think love really brings a deep sense of safety. Oh and I think um what I'm realizing through our conversation, I appreciate you all appreciate you all very much for this is um it gets to be both. Like I my I ended with saying in my dreams that I want to love someone else really deeply. And I think what I was actually trying to say is I want to feel that deeply from somebody. Um or really what I'm just saying, I I want to just feel that. Um it's kind of but I still want to do all of that I dreamed of if I really maybe not. Um, and that's Eric Um Yeah, no, thanks for that reality to know how my like how it turns out.

Sam 1:59:52

Yeah. Did we never go?

David 1:59:55

No, Reese. Oh yeah, there you go. Um what stood out to me, I mean, everybody has said something really powerful. Um, but I really found it interesting what you said about Reese. I'd never thought about um just and for you it's a normal thing, but for me it was like, wow, yeah. The fact that we haven't paused and like haven't done anything with all of these major events uh as a society, like that's like yeah, we haven't. I mean, maybe there there's some organization or something out there to gather all of that up, but just just really impactful sort of question for me.

Sam 2:00:32

Yeah. It might take 500 years, David.

Colette 2:00:38

It might. It actually uh makes me wonder about how Germany recovered after the Holocaust. There was a lot, I think there's probably a lot for us to learn from that. I don't know. Yeah, but I'm right there with you. Yeah, that's I did write like social ritual or societal rituals down too. So yeah. Let's get curious together, David. Oh, yeah.

Sam 2:00:59

Wow. Well, thanks for everyone uh who brought everybody brought their whole damn self to the table today. And I'm so thankful. Wow. Uh uh the conversation uh couldn't have happened without each of you and your unique and curious perspectives and experiences.

How To Reach Us And Vote

Sam 2:01:15

So I'm so grateful for each of you.

Colette 2:01:16

And if today sparks something in you, we want to hear it. You can text us or leave a voicemail right from the show notes. That's your version of gathering the good.

Rhys 2:01:26

And if you've got a question you want the crew to sit with next month, the vote is open too. One link in the show notes gets you all of it. The gathering, the community, the conversation. We would genuinely love to see there wherever there is for you.

Sam 2:01:40

Okay, I know Colette is gonna tell me this is cheesy.

Colette 2:01:42

No, I'm here for it. You are ready?

Sam 2:01:44

Yep.

Colette 2:01:45

Until then, stay. We gotta go, we gotta go.

Sam 2:01:50

Watch the thumb. But we want on three after three or on three. It's important. Stay curious. We did? Well, then we can edit that out.

Brenda 2:02:02

Yeah.

Rhys 2:02:04

One more time. Until then.

Sam 2:02:06

Darius. There we go. All right. Oh, wow, that's great.