The Curious Krewe Podcast
Curious Krewe invites real people into thoughtful, listening-first conversations that turn curiosity into connection.
The Curious Krewe Podcast
Borrowed Blueprints: Two Wolves, One Unitard, & Life Plans
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If your “dream life” feels more like a checklist you’re trying to pass, we’ve been there and we’re not letting that script run the show unchecked. We sit down with the Crew to ask a deceptively simple question:
"How much of your idea for a'perfect life is actually yours? How much is just a script you inherited?
How much of your idea of a perfect life is actually yours, and how much is an inherited script from family, religion, heteronormativity, and the Western success machine? From coming out experiences and family grief to the quiet power of representation, we talk through what changes when the list of “cants” gets shorter, and what still stays hard even when you’re supported. We also get real about gender expression, the relief of being seen as normal, and the complicated emotions that show up when the next generation has it easier and you’re still mourning what you didn’t get.
Then we follow the script into work and caregiving. We unpack performance culture, workaholism, burnout, and the brutal question that can land in the silence: do I even matter without the job, the praise, or the productivity? We trade practical self-care ideas that actually work on hard days, and we challenge the myth that caregivers and healers must suffer. We close with disability, chronic illness, and a grounding reframe we keep coming back to: capacity vs capability.
If this conversation sparks something in you, subscribe, share it with a friend, leave a review, and tell us what script you’re rewriting right now?
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Until then, Stay Curious!
Sound Check And Cold Open
SamBump bump bump talk normal.
MeganTalk normal. Talk normal to me. Is this is this a test?
SamIt's a test.
MeganTalk normal to me, tell me.
RhysTalk to me.
ChristyThat's a thong. Talk to me. It's Ricky Martin, right? Is that Ricky Martin?
RhysThat sounds pretty good. I think we figured it out whatever it is. You don't? No. I hear you. I can hear you too. I'm probably gonna turn okay good. I'm gonna turn my headset up a little, but yeah, if you could turn my headset up a little, Sam, I'm yellow. I'm kernel mustard. Colonel Mustard in the studio with the knife. No, with the uh we gotta think it's a bro. With the on air. With an XLR cable. Scarlet. Enough messing around, let's get to it.
Curious Crew Welcome And Why We Gather
SamDo you ever wish for a place where you can ask real questions without a fight? Do you ever want to sit with people who see the world differently than you and still feel connected? Do you ever crave a circle that listens more than it lectures and leaves you a little more human than when you arrived? If this is you, welcome to the Curious Crew Podcast. One honest question with many voices and with real connection. It's where we listen first and we practice curiosity with kindness and then become curious friends together. So without further ado, let's get curious. All right, everybody, greetings and welcome, all you curious people. We are back, and this month's question is a great one. As usual, I'm Sam, joined as always by my coco hosts, as well as a assortment of other curious humans you will meet very, very soon. So to get things going, we're gonna do what we always do and start with something that has already that technically has nothing to do with our main question.
Wrestling Walk-Up Songs Break The Ice
SamSo, Colette, will you kick us off?
ColetteHey y'all, I'm Colette. My pronouns are they and them, and we're gonna have our folks share their name and their answer to the curious quickie. What's your wrestling wake-ups, walk-up song?
SamOh, this is such a hard one for me because I have so many.
ColetteDoes everyone know what a wrestling song is? You know what a wrestling song? Okay, okay.
SamOkay. Because uh fun fact, I did a wet I was at a wedding about a year ago, and the bride and groom came down to re did wrestling entrances.
RhysIt was awesome. That is awesome. And don't forget, introduce yourself this time.
SamYeah, your name.
RhysYour name. If you would like to. I already said my name. I was I was looking at you, but I wasn't necessarily referring to you.
ColetteThis is why we need a recording, a video recording, so people can see why we're being sassy towards exactly.
RhysOtherwise, we just seem like an attitudey to Yeah, it's like, do these people even like each other?
SamGo first. I'll go first because I actually don't know. My name's Sam, of course. But um see, the problem is I grew up watching wrestling. And like I just in fact, I have a wrestling name, it's the fortified hooligan. I I actually that's a badass name. Come on, Xbox name? It's my Xbox name, it's everything.
ColetteIt's it feels adjacent though to like enriched flower. And I don't know why. And fortified with what, Sam?
SamFortified with exactly hooliganness. Hooligan hooliganery, or as as some of us say. Hooliganery? Yeah, hooliganery.
ColetteOkay.
SamIt's a thing.
ColetteActually, what's your song, Sam?
SamUh, I had so many. I was gonna pick something from Weird O Yankovic, and then I thought, but no, that's one wrestling character. And then of course, you gotta love uh for some reason I love Triple H's entry music. It's like uh it's actually done by Motorhead, it's really good. Okay. But um I you know it's hard. I think I'm gonna do Lasagna by um Weirdo Yankovic. And it's but lasagna is to the turn to the tune of La Bamba. And so it goes la la la laagna. Don't you get any on you, you sloppy pig, have some beef ravioli. And so that's that's that's that's mine.
ColetteFaith has never been more embarrassed than she is right now.
SamOh, yeah. Yeah, this is true. Yes. Fun fact I'm a huge weirdo Yankovic fan. So go on. I'm done. You've never been making fun of me. So there you go. Lasagna. We have a culture.
ColetteI know you do.
SamOkay. We've been accused of not having culture. We have it. It's interesting. Who's next?
FaithI go next. Oh, now go Faith. Go. Okay, go Faith. Um, okay, my name is Faith. And oh, I also feel the need to say that my Xbox name is Fortified Unicorn.
SamYeah, I made all my kids. Faith is my daughter, and I made all my kids have fortified something.
ColetteI love that. It wasn't my voice. This is oh, that well, that's on brand. I still have it. It's part of the script that you've been required to live. No shot. Yeah. I can't even play without him infusing me.
FaithLike for like my wrestling walk-up song would probably be like Crank by Slater. Hell yeah.
SamOkay.
FaithOr need a preview.
SamOh yeah, you gotta do it. You gotta do it. No, crank it! That's that could be your finishing move too. Oh, that's or Von Dutch.
FaithVon Dutch by Charlie X, probably.
SamOh, Von Dutch is a word.
FaithWe're gonna have to put all these songs in the sh in the show notes.
RhysI mean something right. Damn. Yeah.
FaithYeah.
SamWho's next?
MeganMegan. Megan. I really yes, apparently this one. That's your wrestling name. Well, I struggled with this because I don't know anything about wrestling. Okay. Nor do I think I would ever participate in wrestling because I would lose very quickly. You think? Yeah no, I know. No, I feel like you could take someone down.
ColetteNo, I look like I could take somebody. It's holding wrestling because you don't have to be able to. You just have to look like you can.
SamYeah, I don't want to, I don't want to like spoil it for everybody, but it's fake.
MeganOh my God. Okay, so I just went the director out and picked meatloafs. Uh I would do anything for love, but I won't do this. Wow. Oh, I love that.
RhysThat's great. That's a good thing. I would do in wrestling. Yeah.
SamYou could technically be there's managers. There we go. Oh. You could be a manager. I could I could be part of the tech crew. No, there's actually no managers that go out with the. Yeah. Oh.
ColetteThey're like the hype man, Vince McMahon. Problematic, but you're the manager.
SamWell, that's a good one. I like it. Who's left?
ChristyUh my name is Christy Sheher. Um talking about Xbox names, I'll just throw that out there.
SamOh.
ChristyI had a wild what is this rated? Oh, it's it's it's whatever you want to do.
SamIt's rated.
ChristyMy Xbox name is Dose of Oxytocin. Oh. I like that. I I thought that was like, I was like, who else that is that? No numbers, no nothing. I like that. Oxytocin is like a really cool rest of this name too. It could also be what is released when you have a child. Yeah. Yeah. Child, but yeah, it's also. Anyway, to the question, um, is that like whenever you're walking in and you hype people? Uh I chose Abercadabra by Lady Gaga. I was I went to a drag show one time and somebody I had not heard the song yet. I didn't know it existed. And they came on and it it was so powerful, and I just I it was viscerally powerful, and I just want to have that same energy when I'm going to wrestle.
FaithWell, wrestling is drag. Yeah. Essentially, yeah. Also, have you listened to Garden of Eden? I have not. You should.
ChristyI will. I haven't.
SamThere's a tip, a free tip. I need all of them. Yeah. That's good. I've got now. I'm going to remember next time I see you coming to the in-person, I'm going to be like whip it up real quick. Woom. Give you your walk-up music.
ChristyYeah.
RhysI think Garden of Eden. Yeah.
SamThat just leaves you. Oh no. Resaurus.
RhysResosaurus. Okay. Oh, that's a new one. I uh I mean so cliche, but Mortal Kombat. Oh, that'd be good. Finish him. Finish him. And I I just relate with Sub Zero. I don't know why that was always my character.
MeganOkay. Was that the blue and black outfit? Yeah.
RhysYeah. Kill you with ice. That was my jam. Yes. Kill you with ice. But on the alternative side, what is that? I can tell by the way. You walk the walk, I'm a woman. Oh, Bee Gees. It's uh what is that song called? I can't remember either. Uh yeah, yeah, the Bee Gee's.
FaithThat one.
RhysIs it Saturday Night Live?
SamBecause that was the movie it was from.
RhysI'm a woman's. Anyways. No time to talk.
SamI can see that. Yeah. You could you could pull that off.
RhysYeah, I think that's.
SamI mean, there there was literally a character in wrestling one time called the Ass Man. And his song, and his song literally was it no, literally, it the it was it started like this. It goes, all she heard was like the limp lights went in. It was like, I'm an ass man. Boom, boom. And then it was a bit big pregnant pause. I'm an ass man. Boom, boom.
ColetteYeah. I gotta put this into my clown show somehow. Well, I'm also still dressed up.
RhysLike, oh, I can see you pull that off. And he's like, then there's a guy called the ass man, just like you, basically.
SamNo, but see, because he was, he was, he was an attractive person. Okay, okay. And so you can be all like all attractive and swab. He was probably wearing like booty shirts with little bottom. He he could pull it off. He could pull it off. He could pull it off. I think you could do it.
RhysI'm thinking one of those like leotards that exposes your chest. Yeah. The full unit art. Yep. Yep. Yeah, totally.
SamYep. I got one at the house. I can give it to you.
RhysFortified unitar. I would find unitard. I just want to jump off the uh rings from the top ring on somebody, the body slam. Oh, yeah. Thank you. That sounds so bad enough.
SamYeah.
ColetteI'm so risk-avers.
SamYeah.
ColetteOh, and mine would be um, I'm not ready to make nice by the chicks. Because I would be I would be like that revenge character. I would be, what is it? It's I would be a heel in wrestling.
SamYeah, heel.
ColetteWhat's a heel?
SamBad guy.
ColetteThe bad guys. They're called heels.
SamAnd good guys are called faces. There's a whole thing.
RhysReally? Yeah.
SamIt's a whole thing. Wow. It's a whole thing.
RhysI've been missing out.
SamYou have been, yeah. It's soap opera for guys.
ColetteI really, really want to see like a drag show that's wrestling. I think because it's just that's what it is. I want like a queer wrestling federation.
SamI have a feeling you gave birth to something today.
RhysFirst person to have it. I have a feeling there's a lot of uh never mind. Yeah. There's a there's a lot of closets in the WWE.
SamGuaranteed. We can open them up. We can open it up. Okay. Okay. Well, that was a good one. Thank you, wrestling. Always bringing so much joy.
RhysAlrighty then. Uh I was gonna make it to it, but I'm not anymore. All right. Now that we are warmed up, it is time to dig into the curious question for this month.
The Question About Perfect Life Scripts
RhysBefore we do though, a quick word on how we do things around in the crew. Capital K crew, love it. We keep the space safe, kind, and real. Not with a bunch of rules, but with what we call the curious code.
ColetteFirst, respects being right always.
SamAnd we make room for fun because it helps us connect. As you see, we connected quite well over that fun.
RhysThere you go.
SamAnd listen first more than you talk.
ColetteWe respond with curious curiosity questions before conclusions.
SamAnd we also at the at the end and all during it, we gather the good, we leave with something worth carrying. Awesome.
RhysSo now that we have the code, let's get to the curious question voted on by the curious crew, which is how much of your idea for a perfect life is actually yours? How much is it just a script you inherited?
SamI was really surprised that somebody that they voted on this. And fun fact, uh when people join over meetup, I have them answer two questions. Um, and one of them is are is there a question or questions that you would like us to talk about? And this was what somebody said. Oh, cool. Yeah. And uh and I thought, you know, that's a really good one. Uh I'm just surprised everybody voted for it. And I'm really surprised that this is the one my daughter absolutely wanted to be on.
RhysAwesome.
SamBecause I'm just like, well shit, here comes family therapy.
FaithNo, that's interesting.
SamYeah, yeah, yeah.
ColetteWould any of our guests like to go first?
MeganSure.
SamOh.
ColetteYeah? Megan? Sure.
Picking Apart The Inherited Script
MeganMegan? Oh, yeah, you go for it. So when I first read this question, uh I got really hung up on the word perfect because it felt icky to me, like Stepford Wives, and that I was just right. Um But then I kind of took a step back and said, okay, what is what is this question just trying to ask me? And I think personally I rephrased it more like uh how much of my life is what I see or saw for myself versus how much is been a result of being conditioned to believe it should look like that.
SamYeah, okay.
MeganAnd I think on some level I have been grappling with that question for 30 plus years, right, since the dawn of the twinkle of uh I'm different, right? And uh you know, you start to then maybe at the 25 year ago mark, I certainly had a script, but it was I don't know, for better or worse, partly mine, partly conditioned to be thinking that this is should be my life, right? And then you just sort of and then you start to ask yourself, especially 25 years ago, right? You're like, okay, can I have the life that is on this script? Am I allowed to still have this life that's on the script? Do I even want parts of the life that's on this script? And I think for me, the last 25 or so years has been just this uh exercise of trying to pick apart that script and figure out which ones belong on there or which ones did somebody else put on there. And I think it's been very helpful for me as I go through this and literally try to step back from it, like think of it as a list. That sometimes when I d have determined that something on my previous script is not for me, and that becomes outward knowledge, uh you can start to see am I the one feeling loss or grief that this thing doesn't belong on my list, or is somebody else feeling that? And that's like almost confirmatory that it was never mine to begin with. Do you have an example that you're comfortable sharing? Uh kids, right? Um, I think we all grow up in this heteronormative word world. Uh, and some of us come from very heteronormative communities or families, right? And so there's this these assumptions that are baked in with that of who you are, what gender you are, who what what person you're going to end up with, you're gonna have get married, have kids, all the other stuff that comes along with it. Yeah, 2.5 in the white picket fence, right?
SamYeah.
MeganUm, and for a very long time, I thought I wanted that. And and at some point, I think my sisters had kids, and then I was like, oh, this is good. This is good. This is what I wanted. I did not actually want kids. I think I wanted a maternal like connection with some children that are important. And so it was fulfilled, and I was like, Yeah, check. I don't need them.
SamYeah, I love them. Gotcha.
ColetteYeah. You just wanted kids in your life. Not that you needed they needed to come from you. Yeah. Yeah.
MeganAnd I think there was a uh I think they'd probably be okay with me saying this. There was a moment, right, where my parents probably had some disappointment that that was not gonna be part of my life. Um now they have so many other grandkids that I don't think they notice, but yeah.
SamThat's great. It makes sense. Uh that's a really that's a really interesting or I never thought of that about the grief thing. Who is feeling it? Yeah. You or the other people. Yes. That's a really good um like the indicator, like a good little litmus, one of them anyway.
RhysYeah, can you I love that. Are you speaking to or may I uh may I ask if you're also speaking to some of your coming out process, it sounds like I had a similar situation with my parents where they were so much grieving when I came out, but I'm like, I'm happy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why is it about so yeah.
MeganYeah, uh absolutely you start to you start to you ask yourself all those same questions, right? Like, d oh, I I'm supposed to get married to a man. Wait, wait, wait, no, no, no. Ew, right? Um No offense. Love you, Sam.
ColetteEven straight girls thank you, but it's Yeah.
MeganUh but you go you know, you go through that like thought process and uh and then you ask yourself, do uh, am I even allowed to get married to a woman? And at the time I was not, right? And oh 25. Yeah. Yeah. So you you almost you start to put that on the list of I cannot have, right? Yeah. And then that starts to become descriptive of your life. But it's still dictated not by me. Right.
RhysYeah.
MeganBy somebody else.
RhysYeah, there's definitely a deep courage that comes from saying, what do I truly want if I were to set aside all of this? Because the next then situation is things become a lot more difficult, but they might become a lot more true for you. Absolutely.
MeganAnd there's just I think there's a step of courage before that of even trying to think about what you want. Yeah. Yeah. Uh accepting that it's possible that that that script is not it. I know.
SamOr even even ask the question, like you said, can I choose something different? That takes a lot of courage to do that. For ever I mean, I think that's it doesn't matter across the board. I think a lot of people they they get to that point in their life and some people push forward and some people just stay there or even go back. Because this is a scary question. It's scary. Because it has implications.
MeganCertainly. Yeah. You don't want to make your parents sad. You don't want to make people outside sad that see like visions for you and dreams for you, but you you really have to try to find your truth, right?
SamYeah. What did it do you and you can be vague or or as specific as you want or feel comfortable, but like what did you um when you when was the first time like or first decision or first thing that you decided for yourself, like this is what I want? Like when when what is that? What was that? And how did it feel? Like basic that's really what I want to know. How did it feel when you finally pick something that's that's you? Oh man.
MeganI'm I'm I'm struggling to think of what might have been the first one.
SamYou don't have to be specific. Yeah, that's that's kinda that was a hard question.
MeganI I mean this okay, this is the most recent one, maybe. Oh okay, that's good. In tw in early 2022, I chopped all my hair off, right? Okay. For many years before that, I had an inkling in my head that that might make me look closer to the way that I envision myself, but I was entirely too scared to do it because of the reactions and or judgments I would get from people. So and so close or far, right? And so I think that that was one of those things where you say, okay, did I always want long hair and a ponytail? Or did is this my conditioning? And the the moment it happened, it was like freedom. Wow. Yep. That's part of who I am and the life that I want to live, small as it may be, right?
SamThat's interesting. No, it's it's an interesting like you didn't even know.
MeganWell that I'm sorry, gender expression's no small thing. Yeah. I just mean yeah, the actual scissors to the hair. Yeah, the scissors to the hair.
ColetteIt's it's so uh interesting to me how they they are like small acts, but they have a big impact, you know? Yeah. I just think that's one of the cool things about gender expression. Yeah. When we start to unlock it. I'm sorry. Anyway, I just had to pause it. Like, that's that's like huge to me.
SamYeah, no, it's a good good clarification that Well, and it's a it's a and you're making uh I I noticed I heard you say, like I think a lot of us when we make decisions, we make decisions to like, oh, I'm gonna do this because I know it's going to be better or this is going to feel right. Or this is going to give me this little thing, but you were making a decision with I think this might be okay. I don't know.
MeganA complete lack of clarity. Holy hell, here we go.
SamYeah. It's like my hair will grow back, but man, it's gonna be a few weeks. Wow.
ColetteThere's something that you're saying about like when you first started realizing that you weren't gonna necessarily follow the script that or that there were ways that you couldn't. What did life look like whenever it was all the couldn't that you were ugly? Really ugly. Yeah.
MeganYeah. Um I mean, I tell this story frequently. Uh there it was a professor that I had at school that had uh an upside-down pink triangle on her door. And at the time I did not know what that meant, and I was struggling, bad, bad. Um I went home, I Googled it or whatever we were able to do at the time. Uh found out what it meant and went back to her office and just basically word-vomited what my struggles were, and that completely changed the trajectory of my life. So I think there before that moment, because she was also in a 30-plus year, I think, uh committed relationship. They weren't married, obviously, but they were in a committed relationship. And so I I could see that that that was a real thing that I could have. And she kind of opened the door to say, uh, all the couldn't you thought before this conversation, you can have it. It's just gonna look different.
ColetteYeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It's the yeah, a life of couldn't just or not allowed is is like a world it creates a world of pain for certain people. Yeah.
RhysYeah. Or I didn't even know possible, like you were saying. I think that's what's amazing to me in the queer coming out experience. Like what? I've been living my whole life blindfolded to what's possible?
MeganYeah, the things don't have to look like the script. Right. You can still have the core and the essence of what you thought you wanted when you were 18. Yeah. But it it's not gonna look the same. And that's cool. Yeah.
SamHow does it feel now for you? What like do you feel that um do you feel the couldn't more than you could? You do you do you see what I'm saying?
MeganSo I think we all in this room could acknowledge that there was a lot of couldn't, and then there was a lot of coulds, and now it feels like more couldn't're being put back on the table. And so it's it's almost infinitely more infuriating and frustrating than than it was when it was the first set of couldn't, right? Right.
ColetteYou didn't know what you had before. You didn't know what was available. Now that you do and it's being taken away, you're like, fuck this noise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SamThat's a good point. I didn't think about that.
MeganAnd it does, it changes the fear into hmm, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh abject rage is my experience. Yeah, but that, but but maybe even motivation, right? Motivation where fear would have hindered that before.
ColetteOh, for sure.
SamOh, because now you know what you're fighting for. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
ColetteWell, and are you willing to fight for it? That's been my my question for myself. Uh, you know, I I think there's a lot of queer people there think that moving out if they can, they are moving out of the country and things like that. And I definitely have the means and access to do that, but I'm like, do I want to, or is this something I'm fighting for? And for me, just me, I've decided this is something I'm fighting for.
MeganYeah. That that's a hundred percent it for me. I come from and still live in a very, very tiny little yeah uh red blob town, right? And a lot of people ask me constantly, why don't you just leave? Why don't you just leave? You'd be a lot more comfortable, a lot more accepted somewhere else. Yeah. And I haven't figured out why, but I know that right now I don't want to.
ColetteYeah.
SamYeah.
ColetteAnd you're not gonna be ran out of your home. Hell yeah. That's your home. Yeah. Yeah.
SamWhy do you need to move to feel comfortable? Right. Does anybody else? Do you see what I'm saying?
MeganLike Yeah, I think the people that ask me, they must have some inherent assumption that for them maybe they would just GTFO, right? Yeah.
SamUm that would happen in New Orleans, like, you know, crime got high, white flight twice, and you know, and it's like, or you can just stay. Make it better.
Coming Out, Grief, And What Wasn't Yours
SamYeah, make it better. Wow, that was good.
ColetteThat it's so inter like I think I it I can't remember the first queer person. No, I kind of can. The first one of the first queer people I met was my now ex-wife. Um, and happily, so you know, like she seemed at peace with herself, um, and she was a Christian, but like I decided to be become a a cler a chaplain in my early twenties. And so it was never really an option, but I because it was because there were so many things that weren't an option for me, I never I don't think I ever really f in that space reckoned with that. But um it instead I became celibate, which was actually a worse experience than when I came out late years later. Yeah like people really many people really struggle with the idea of me being like intentionally celibate and single. Um and they just didn't like want that for me. Um, and so yeah, when you were talking about like who who's grieving what you're not doing, yeah. I really resonate with that just from that experience. Um and and it's like, well, why are you grieving why are you grieving something for me? Uh it's kind of a weird experience to have somebody grieve.
SamThat goes back to what you're said, the lipman, who is grieving more. Yep. That's man, I'm gonna pay attention to that more. Yeah. That's a really interesting way to kind of parse out some feelings. What's really going on.
ColetteWell, and I'm I'm like curious, like, what are they grieving for you? Um their vision of you. Yeah.
MeganBut don't you think not always bad?
RhysI don't think it's grieving for you. Yeah, but I think they're grieving their own investment and uh energy into their idea of you. Nailed it.
FaithI think it comes from a more like selfish place. Yeah. It's it's more like, wait a minute, I spent 20 years.
SamNo, I think I know where you're gonna start.
FaithI I I don't know. Mike, in my experience, I really don't think it comes from someone actually being like, I'm sorry you don't have this. I'm just I'm sorry I won't be involved in my idea of what it would have been.
SamYeah, you know, like I feel like as speaking from as as a straight person, uh you know, heteronormative, whatever, whatever. And I remember and I I'll I'll openly say, I like I didn't, I'm I did not start off where I am today. And but what's funny is I remember the first time like this this actually, I was I was an atheist, and like I didn't care about anything, you know. I really was completely self-centered, and not I'm saying all atheists are, I just was. And um, but I uh I remember it was during an election, and I remember it was one of the it was way back, and and they were just like, and it's like yeah, we can't have the gays, you know, getting married. And uh sorry not all bigotry of southern. Like always. Well but but but but I remember I was like, yeah, like yeah, we shouldn't do yeah, what are these people thinking? And I'm like, why the fuck do I care? Yeah, I don't what am I what am I pissed off at your piss? I don't even know. But but but but no, but what I realized is like, and and maybe I how I was and maybe I'm riffing off on what Faith says is like it's your that it's challenging my story. It's challenging my narrative and what I've constructed, and that is outside of it and different of it, and that that threatens me. Yeah. And yeah, it took me a minute to get there because uh I was like, oh yeah, like does this really how does this impact me exactly? And and why am I upset about it? Oh, that's why. Because it just means like, oh, there's more than one there's more than one way to do things that exist in the world, and I don't, but I've always been told it's this and I'm doing this. Uh so I think it is like I think you're right, it is selfish.
ColetteWell, my mom used to say before I came out, I I really think my my family knew and they were in like unconscious ways, but she would say things like, I just don't want that for I don't want that life for my kids. I don't want their life to be that hard. Um, and I'm like it just I'm like, life is fucking hard. Yeah. Yeah.
RhysI think that's that's exactly why I was like, I'm just gonna be able to do that. So what's the alternative? Live into a narrative that is not yours at all and continue to remain completely anxiety ridden the rest of your life is that easy? Yeah. That's what I don't get. I'm sorry. I'm getting really angry just hearing it because it's breaking back. My mom said the same thing. Yeah. Well, like your life's gonna be hard, and that was the end of it.
ColetteRight. And it like you're at least I'm choosing what kind of hard my life is gonna be, like eyes wide open. I have queer elders who are telling me how hard it's been and how hard it could continue to be. Oh, or we could work towards making it easier for the for the even the people who are coming uh ourselves and for the people coming after us. That's the thing I love about the queer community is like they're like, yeah, it's fucking hard, but we know what the fuck we signed up for. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
RhysYou know? Well, and even if I didn't want to sign up for it, I can't change it. So I mean, what are we what are we doing here? Yeah.
MeganNo, the alternative is ugly.
RhysIt's not reasonable, it's not logical to just say to somebody, your life's gonna be hard, maybe you should think otherwise. What?
SamRight. Yeah. Yeah, they don't say that. Like, like how many times have you heard this when when a kid goes to their parents, I want to be a doctor? That's extraordinarily hard to be a doctor and cost tons of money, and you're gonna lose sleep, you're gonna lose health, and all this stuff, but they don't go, Oh, I don't want that for you.
MeganLike, hell yeah. Right. You know? I'm thinking about what Faith just said, and I think it's I'm I'm almost kind of uh dividing the selfish into two steps because I I don't think it's selfish for like, let's just take parents as an example, right? I don't think it's selfish for parents to start picturing and envisioning what their kid is gonna do, and and you get excited, right?
FaithAnd you're like since it's like having a kid, obviously I wouldn't know, but I feel like having a kid is like I feel like it would be one of the most special things.
SamOh yeah.
FaithAbsolutely. Because you made it. Like, you know.
MeganI I think the selfish part is uh holding on to it. Yeah. Right. Yeah, right. It's reasonable to grieve.
RhysI mean, but to just stay there and not try to connect to your child's experience. Yeah.
FaithAnd I even feel like maybe it's okay to put those thoughts out there and be like, you know, I'm I'm sad. Um it's okay to be sad. Like but I feel like you can so like visibly not even like visibly, you can just so clearly tell when it comes from a place of bitterness instead of like trying to like pass the maybe even get like past the sadness or like like deal with it instead of it just I don't know.
RhysOr integrate it.
SamI uh you're making me think of like I've seen pa my like my dad did this, where he he couldn't have what he wanted in his life, so he wanted me to have it. Right. Yeah. And so when I didn't like I remember the first time I tried football and I just was like, fuck this. And uh and I remember he got really pissed off, and then my mom came back and told me later, he's like, he's just he just he wanted he actually was a really good running back in high school. Oh he only got to seventh grade. But like, so he's like, Oh, I want my I want that for my son. I want him to have be, you know, on a football team and do this and that. And when I didn't, uh he only knew how to express grief and anger. Yeah. But he was grieving because, like, oh, my son's not gonna be a football, this means I'm not gonna be get to live that through him.
ColetteYeah.
SamYeah.
ColetteWhen well, I've always known I didn't want to have kids. And my I took my joke that is uh grounded in reality is that my biological clock was left in my mother when I exited the room. Um it was on for her. And uh it took a long time for her to realize, like, yeah, this is just not what like you want for yourself. And I think she's really come around to it um and understands where I'm coming from, um, at least on a cerebral level, and like respects it. But dang, it took forever. Like it real like I didn't think it would ever she'd ever come around to it to it to be like, yeah, this is this is the way that it's gonna be. Yeah. Um yeah. I think anyone else a parent other than Sam in the group? No. I'm just kind of curious, like for well, your kid is in front of you, so I'm just gonna put I'll be honest here. We've always been on. Yeah, like how did you ever have scripts for face? I'm sure you did on some maybe unconscious level. And yeah, I I funny enough. Where do you think those came from is my main question.
SamWell, funny enough, I got to do it twice. Right. And so and I I I tell them they know this. It's like Colin, my first son, like they're they're uh what? How old are you guys apart? 18? Is it 14 or 14?
FaithI'm 18, he's 31.
SamYeah, so they're quite a bit. They're they're hugely apart. And you know, I that would have been a much easier question to answer when Colin with Colin, because I didn't know what I was doing. And and you know, I got to learn, and then with faith coming, I had I had so much knowledge buildup. I was like, oh, here's the things that I'm not gonna do. And uh like I remember um like one of the things the the short answer is no. I didn't really have any script for her, other than I wanted her, I want this for both my kids, but like I wanted her to be her, and I wanted her to be like my job was to uh help her become her. And like, so like I did like I I think I've told her this before, I know she knows this, but like I know uh she uh everybody would always say, Oh, you're so pretty, and you're so cute. And they would comment on her physical appearance all the time. And I would be like, and she's also really smart and super creative, and she's quirky, and she has all these things. And so like I wanted to tell other people that's not just her story. Like she's not just a pretty face. Like she's she's got she's actually the whole package, you know, and maybe I'm a little biased. But uh every parent has a responsibility to be guided or anything.
FaithIt's okay.
SamBut no, I I don't think I really struggled with that with with them too much because I think I I at least was a self-aware enough to go and like, oh, I didn't like that when that happened. And and I'm gonna like there's yeah, they may she's made choices, Colin's made choices that I'm just like, you know, it's like I wouldn't have done that. But then I'm also telling two, but like I'm me telling them they fucked up and what to do is not gonna teach them anything. It's I think they differ. Oh, well, like maybe not for your faith. I mean, go ahead. Yeah.
FaithYou think I'm um I feel like you so rarely tell me that I fuck up that when you do tell me I fuck up, I'm like, I probably actually fucked up. You know what I mean? So when yeah, yeah.
Faith On Queer Joy And Gender Expression
FaithSo when you do say something like that, it's kind of like maybe I should re-evaluate how I did that. It's it's paid off. Also, I hear y'all talking about y'all's coming out stories, and I was like, I was trying to think about okay, I'm a lesbian, filling out that. But like I feel like I have a very different experience. Also, I'm 18. I think obviously there's a gap. I'm very lucky. Um I did grow up in a church, you know. Yeah. Um there wasn't I wouldn't say there was like I'm I'm very lucky because like I didn't I didn't grow up with like my parents in my ear. Like that wasn't it just wasn't a thing.
MeganLike it wasn't so there wasn't anything about like that's a great distinction because uh I was talking with my partner last night about my answer, right? And she said, I wonder if somebody 20 years younger than you would experience it in the same order that you went, right? Because you today have less things on the list of things that you can't have. Yeah. So how different has your experience specifically in coming out, right? Or specifically as like part of the LGBTQ community, uh your list is objectively less full of cants. Yeah. How how do you compare it to I guess my story, how do you um how hard is that?
FaithLike how hard is not having the coulds or cans. Yeah. I feel like I the like how I figured out I was queer was I don't even know. It was kind of such a blur because it wasn't one thing. Oh, hello. It wasn't just one thing. I I don't even know. I think the first time I even talked to my mom about it, there was nothing that was off the table. You know, it was just it was out there and I was just like I've I've never liked a man in my life. One I've never liked.
SamWait, uh please? Am I at least am I okay? Yeah.
FaithI love you.
SamI understand why you don't like common. I understand why you don't like common.
FaithUm, but like I was obviously the first sign I never actually liked a man in my life. I was like, I was becoming a little like interesting. Um, you know, I was in TCBY with my mom, and I was like, I think I might be bisexual. She was bisexual. She was like, received. That's cool. That's good. And I was like, that's awesome. That was that. That's awesome. You know, and then kind of evolved over the years I got into high school.
RhysWait, real quick, were you eating a uh like a chocolate vanilla ice cream? This is important. Like I think bisexual. No, I know.
FaithI mean, was it a swirl? I've had this same TCVY order from my like probably a whole life. It's gotta be on a cone. It's white chocolate mousse with cookie dough in it. Okay. Or toffee.
RhysThis is a good question. More butterfangers.
FaithI love it. Anyway, my bad. Shit. But like, where was I?
SamI have a tendency to be a little bit more.
FaithOh, you were you said bisexual to your mom and she was like received and you know, and then there was Yeah, 2020 was an interesting experience for someone, like especially people who are growing. It was an interesting experience for everyone, but you know, I was mostly on social media for most of 2020, it was most of what I had, you know, gaming and all that. And I started like thinking about how do I, you know, feel about gender. And you know? I like now I'm I'm pretty I'm comfortable with she her, but I'm also I never got over the part where I feel ambiguous. Like I don't I don't I'm in I'm very in touch it took me a while to get in touch with femininity in a way that wasn't um influenced by someone saying you should be ladylike. I'm feminine because Oh I don't that's also goes into script. I don't yes, I was I I was always told, you know, to be ladylike, yes, ladylike, or you know, behave that way. That's different from manners, in my opinion. I have manners, but I don't I don't respect the whole be ladylike, you know. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm not. Yeah. I got a big frame. That's not happening. But um yeah. Um I lost it.
SamNo, you didn't no um You're doing great.
FaithYou're talking about your gender identity. Yeah. Um, I don't I don't have a specific like identity, but also I I'm I leave it pretty open-ended for the audience. I'm like, what do you think?
MeganYeah, no, I like I mean I like your answer. It it if I could maybe reflect it back to you, yeah, it kind of sounded like your journey was more um f fuzzy, right? There's no like moment of scariness, and then you transition into this like, oh, this is this is my new life, right?
FaithYeah.
MeganUh it organic, that's the word.
FaithI also feel like it's worth mentioning that it's also work in progress. I'm not fully out at all. I'm speed. Yeah I'm out to the people. I only I'm only out to the people that um I know would understand that they haven't known a version of me that wasn't sure. Yeah. Queer of some sorts.
SamI I want to say this, actually, she comes from a lineage of her aunt uh, you know, is is in the LGBTQ community, and she was she actually worked to help, she was one of the people that helped legalize it. Okay and she was the her and her partner were the first people to get married in Alabama.
FaithI'm like speaking of Alabama, having family from Alabama, I'm not out to any of my family from Alabama.
SamSo we would not be sharing this podcast episode with them.
FaithOh, no.
SamBut all you lucky listeners, you are in the club.
FaithYou know, I I'm very fearful that you know the day I bring someone home, but I can't bring them home to my family in Alabama. Probably. And that sucks, you know. Yeah, that does. You know, I mean I could theoretically, of course there's always you can.
MeganDo you want to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get a choice in that.
FaithYeah, but it's always funny whenever we talk about um how you perceived like whenever um whenever we get on like the topic of like me being queer, like I always ask a lot of questions.
SamLike, so what is this, what is this, how's this work for you? Or is it like tell me or like or or yeah, or like the girls I've talked to. Oh yeah, is it's like I was oh so she has a girl for a girl come over and like so this is it's so much harder to tiny as the lesbians do not move that way as a dad.
RhysYou're probably still like it and that door stays open.
SamYeah, no, no, no, no, no. Well, no, I'm just like, no, I I know what she likes, and I'm so like, is this because I'm like I'm I mean, yeah, it'd be like to be like, oh, I mean, because there's part of me to be like, oh, I'd love to have a like a another like a daughter-in-law, or like you know, what would happen. So, you know, it's just like a normal dad thing of like who's who's dating my daughter? Who's this person?
FaithIt's it's been a journey because he's he's so curious. God bless him. He's so curious. Also, I feel like like the queer experience I have at least, it's not all good, but it's mostly good, you know. But like I feel like all the I'm saying like a lot. I mean apologies.
MeganI like hearing that because that is not my story, and that's not a lot of people's story. So I think as we progress through time, um if we just transition to more people having a more good than more bad experience, okay.
FaithI feel like once I've found the joy of being in a queer community, everything else instantly just went like I really don't give a shit. Like I it's that isn't it? I'm not trying to be corny or anything. I was just like, once I found what I got, I found my people. I'm like, I I honestly cannot give a damn. Like it just doesn't matter to me. Sometimes I even this is so like whenever I'm with my like all my friends are queer. I have one straight friend actually.
SamUm The token straight.
FaithLeah. Yes. And um, I don't know, it just all goes away. Like sometimes I go outside and I'm like, oh, I forget people actually don't like.
SamYeah.
FaithYeah, I know. Don't like uh queer people or yeah.
SamI have one last question for you, Megan. Like hearing that, oh I can ask anybody here, but like, does that does that make you feel like how does that make you feel to hear someone had a a much more positive I'm assuming positive, I would that's how I'm hearing it.
FaithYes.
SamA much more positive experience or affirming experience than say you had in the process.
MeganI mean, great. Like I I don't I think that signals that even with all the ups and downs, right, the general trajectory of queer kids coming out and starting their their to figure out their own lives is better than it was 20 years ago. Yeah. So so just that that simple progression into like, I don't know, out of every hundred kids 20 years ago, maybe 80 of them said they had a shitty coming out experience. And maybe now it's 50. That's fantastic. It's like, you know, the kids being better at sports today than they were 20 years ago. Like you want the next generation to when evolution grows. I sure don't want them to have to keep going through all the stress the same struggles.
RhysYeah. I think um if I could answer that too, I feel similar. And I think I'm maybe in a less healed spot because I'm so happy for faith. And it's like, yeah, I'm not gonna lie, there's a little bit of like jealousy. Yeah. And I mean, that's just a human reaction. I I think I'm still mourning. Yeah. I think the lack of celebratory process that I had and the continued lack of process that experience on the day-to-day in my own situation. Um and I'm like, thank God, you know, like the person in me who is the humanist, the universalist, the the service-oriented person. It's like, I'm so grateful that faith and then future generations, like my niece who's seven now, yeah, you know, not to say that she's queer, but if she is and turns out or whatever, that that she will have that experience or her friends or her family, you know, because it's does take a it's a gener I think you were were you saying that last time? Most change happens because of death. Right, well, right, and enough time and enough people growing up in a culture that like accepts that and then they pass it on to their kids and they you know, and so yeah, I I experience a mix of emotion, but I'm definitely happy.
SamYeah.
FaithYeah. It's always weird to like like I I very much grew up in like in the church. I mean, you pastor, but like um it's always like kind of weird to think about how lucky I got for someone like growing up as a pastor's daughter. Like oh, trust me, there was like plenty of people saying that, you know, like queerness is very odd and it's not to be done, you know, but it's like it's almost like my parents never like they never said that, so it wasn't a thing to me. I was just like, oh, and when I did like start to be like oh, I think I'm queer. It was it wasn't a celebration, it also wasn't a big thing, and I feel like because it wasn't a big thing, it felt normal. Yeah, and therefore it was normal.
ColetteThat's a great it was normal for that's how my dad reacted. It was like I just told him over dinner and he was like, Cool, what do you want to eat?
SamI it's like, shouldn't this have been a bigger morning?
ColetteAnd I was like so grateful for that. I was you know, I was like, I just I didn't want I didn't want a morning, I didn't want to celebrate, I just wanted it to I just wanted to be normal. Um whenever whenever it came out and he's the main person who gave me that gift, or it's just like and we have the coolest conversations now, you know, because he was able to just make it normal. Yeah. But also I hear in your story the value of representation and didn't hear in your story, Megan, and it's certainly not in mine. Like, I don't think I I think it took me so long to realize I was queer because I it was not around me. Um and made worse by the fact that I'm probably somewhere on the ace spectrum, like demi sexual, day demi-romantic, like and then I'm a gender. And so I just there's just like there's too many elements that I that even if I did see and I remember growing up with a lesbian couple at one point in in the in the friend circle. Um, but even that didn't re I was curious about it. Um, but they were nor like it was also just very normal. And I think it was the normal that I was just like, am I normal? I think I've always just what I mean by normal is what is the script. Even the lesbians felt like they fell in the script, if that makes sense. That they were following some sort of heteronormative Even in lesbian relationships, there's still always the outside influence of who's the man.
FaithSo I mean like who's the boy? Which really, if we're being real, that's really not a thing. No, like but yeah.
ColetteUm Wow. Because yeah, when you were talking about like 2020 and thinking about gender identity, because it was like on the reels, so to speak. Like it was probably like everything. And but you didn't you you've had representation, but it was via an emblem that you didn't even understand.
MeganYeah, it was super isolated and that I think that that is why today I still choose to uh even sometimes fight, right, to be my true self outward in the open, to be the representation that I needed then to anybody that may or may not see me. Yeah, me too. Because if if some kid gets to see me the way I saw her, uh their life may be different. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
RhysYeah, and you never know how you're impacting people. I think about that with my own gender pronouns. Like I use he, him, they them pronouns, but probably honestly, they, them's more true, but he him I like, but it helps me also just like avoid the constant like I don't know how to use they them. Yeah, wait. So I'm just gonna see you, she, herm, just I'm like, if you can't figure out they them, then say.
SamWell But yeah, go ahead.
RhysNo, go ahead.
SamNo, well, Collette taught me a great trick. Everybody's they. Everyone's they and everybody's they're so like when I'm past a cat, hey they. You know, it's like what are what are they doing? It's very helpful.
RhysI know. I wish everybody would embrace that. Yeah. But it's just like, um, but but I do think about, well, you know what? On the days where I have the energy to think about grander society and future generations, I'm like, I use they, them pronouns because I know that it's best to be true to yourself so that that representation does exist. Yeah. Uh huh. You know? Um I just get tired of correcting people. Yeah, but I do too. So then I'm just like, just say he, him, they, them. Like I like both, just don't say she, her, my lord.
ColetteAnd then I'm grateful for all my straight white friend straight white guy friends who are correct people for me. And I'm like, y'all are really doing the Lord's work, so to speak. I don't really need that help. Because I get tired. And y'all y'all can take the fight. Uh I work with a a guy who's always like, he's like, it's our work to do, and I'm gonna make him do it. Awesome.
SamYeah. Yeah.
RhysChristy, how are you doing? Do you feel thoughts? You don't have to answer that. Oh, uh, I was just listening. Yeah, listening to everybody. Just making sure you get in a voice. You want to? Yeah.
ColetteWe ready to move on. Oh, yeah.
SamWho wants to talk next? Man, that was a good one. That was very good. That was very good, Megan. Way to kick us off.
RhysThanks. Thanks for the chat. Yes.
Performance Culture And The Workaholic Trap
RhysI'll hop in real quick because I think it builds a little bit. I didn't think it would, but I always sometimes I'm like, okay, this bucket belongs in the career portion of reason. This bucket belongs in queer. And then I'm like, I never can actually separate the two because they're so interrelated. Oh yeah, they really are. You know. Um I was going to say that I was raised believing that performance and excellence equates to happiness.
SamYep.
RhysAnd that if you can achieve an outwardly version of Western success, career, finances, money, stability, family, maybe a skyrocketing awesome political career, that you have made it.
SamYeah.
RhysAnd what I have found when I left all of that behind is that it's definitely as cliche as it sounds, the smaller day-to-day things and being present in your life, I think that actually equates to happiness. So uh, example when I went to LSU, I started in business and economics. And I was like, this isn't bringing me happiness. So I switched to history and international studies and like this is my jam. I don't know financially where that will bring me, but this was my jam. Or leaving my corporate career a few years ago and then focusing on like building my home that feels good for me. This podcast studio, this community with you all has brought me so many greater depths of happiness that perhaps aren't on the outside of that Western vision success to that vision. Uh and certainly not my uh family or some of my parents will say. But it's perhaps one of the greatest lies we're all told. And I think what's interesting about it is part of me does grieve the uh excellence and the performance version of me that could enter any workspace and just excel. But and I think about wanting to go back into that sometimes, like maybe even a corporate environment. But I'm like, I don't know if I can because I've changed. Yeah. And that scares me, honestly, sometimes. Like, I'm like, even in my current job, I'm currently working in the emergency room at Oshner, emergency department. And I'm like, I want to be the best ED technician that there is, but I can't, it's I'm having a very hard time connecting to that anymore.
SamOh.
RhysAnd I'm what and I so I'm curious about, and I love y'all's perspective. I'm curious about like, can I not connect to that? Because that was more of a narrative.
ColetteYeah.
RhysThat I was fed that was maybe more survival related. Um, and the truer version of me is way more of a balanced performer and a performer who is slower but a lot more intentional. And what does that look like? Um, and I also back to like why I said it's related to my queerness. I think I spent many years um being rewarded by my teachers, like fourth grade got the headmaster's award for excellence. And my parents like applause to that. And, you know, even in the corporate world, you get incentivized to perform with monetary incentive and bonuses and bonuses, and you're rewarded for that. And so your brain associates success with that. And so, like, now that what was I trying to say? I guess I oh yeah, I used that as a way to be fit in.
FaithYeah.
RhysTo fit in for a long time. And I think that when I also came out as queer, I couldn't change that. I couldn't change who I was. And I I remember even telling my parents, like, the hardest part about this is that I could perform and get y'all's praise and now, and but and I could I could influence almost any situation, get the job, get the money, do the things, but I can't change this one thing, which is being queer. Yeah. And that's the most painful thing is like I wanted to um impress y'all and fit in, and I can't change this one thing for you. Yeah. And I think that was a huge divergence point for me. Um and I think I'm still grieving that in a bit of a sucks. It kind of just like it feels like I'm living this more like authentic, fulfilled life. But I don't have the um full acceptance even of my parents around that. And that will never change. Um and so it's like, but it's like this slower build of building a community around me that does accept me for the fact that I've chosen not to tie my happiness to um other people's expectations. Yeah. Other uh like incentive, you know, monetary incentive. Then in fact, like I'm actually just living a life that's more fulfilled and uh this is what I want.
SamAnyway, it's more balanced too. It's more balanced. Well, and it's not you don't get rewarded for being balanced.
RhysNo, I know. You know, and maybe in if I lived in the eastern and the Zen Eastern world, they could say, you are so balanced, Reese. Congratulations. Yeah. And it's funny, just my like um my uh what is it, love language is definitely words of affirmation. And so I think, you know, I've tried to be like, it's okay to want that. And but I, you know, so this is where I am.
MeganI d I definitely have a question. Oh, good.
RhysOkay.
MeganWould you say that um the life that you have built for yourself now, there is less pressure. Do you feel less pressure to be uh the the thing that you thought you were supposed to be when you were 10? I mean, I'm not sure really sure, but Yeah, definitely. Okay, yeah. I feel that performance things so heavily. And I think there is there's still a pressure to be good at everything you do, right? Be the best, uh perform well. Do you think because the queerness trajectory of your life now has less pressure, you feel less pressure to to continue with the performative aspect of the career part?
RhysYeah, and I think I'm still in this place of because there's less pressure, then I must be doing something wrong. Uh oh, wow. That there's like when is that pressure gonna come back? Because that's what and maybe also like maybe that's not terrible because I think I also actually do perform better under pressure.
ColetteUm I think people just say that as because that's the way they've come to perform well, what they understand as well, as only being under pressure. Yeah. Um interestingly enough, when I went to basic training was whenever I kind of realized uh that I didn't want to perfor I didn't always need to perform under pressure like that. Yeah. Which it was like nothing but pressure, ironically. Um but that there are other ways you can motivate yourself.
RhysI haven't figured it out yet. Do you have any thoughts?
ColetteLike um like our the culture our culture uses pressure to motivate us to produce.
RhysYes, yes, yes.
ColetteAnd so you have to find new motivation. And what I think uh shame is also a big motivator in our culture. And I'm hearing that in s in your story too.
RhysYou know where do you hear it most?
ColetteUm well I think in the previous episodes you said you said like that you um have like internalized homophobia. Um but I also think the fact that you're asking like I I are am I am I right hearing that you you're asking yourself um why don't I want to be under pressure?
RhysI think it's just that I associate um yeah, pressure with productivity. And that productivity is a good thing. And if I'm not being productive, then I'm yeah, not adding value. If you're not feeling that pressure, then the cycle's broken. You're like, oh, this is what not be productive. Right. Because because I maybe and like I haven't the ecosystem I was in before was clear board. Yep. Yeah. Money, relational validation, you're doing the right thing, you're fitting into everything else. And so in my mind yet, and maybe that is part of the shame, but I haven't yet been like, well, if I those things are missing, am I still adding value? And what does that actually look like for me? Because I like working. I do. I like working, I like producing. But like, how can I relate to those things in a way that's like sustainable? Yeah. Yeah.
ColetteWell, and and that re recognizes that you do need validation, but now it lar in the caregiver role largely cannot come from those that you're support the uh the outcome of your labor. Like we you can't expect your patients to validate you. No, no, no. Right. And I actually don't at this point.
RhysI used to in EMS, but I do not.
ColetteYeah.
RhysUh definitely they do not validate. Right. They're like, I fucking hate you. Well, to be fair, they're they're under a little stress.
ColetteNo, they're this week, this past week was yeah, and you're not getting you're not gonna get paid well in healthcare.
RhysNo.
ColetteUm so yeah, like what is the incentive? How do you incentivize yourself to keep going when it's hard?
RhysMm-hmm.
ColetteIs that part of the what's under there? Yeah, probably. Um But I also think like having dealt with gender identity for me, exploring gender expression and finally, you know, uh, and and like transitioning and stuff like that, uh, was the ultimate release of pressure for me. And once I kind of like clocked that jar open, kicked that jar open, it was like Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was like, oh, that was that was the that was part of the pressure in addition to the and it was a major motivator for me to like perform at a high, you know, okay, interesting. At a high level, because it was like, oh, I was performing because I thought I had to earn my right to exist in this world. Yes, yeah.
RhysThat's and I think that's why I started by saying I I tend to like to separate the two, but I don't think I can. You know, I mean it's almost a little bit like every we all tend to have our coping mechanisms for things that are painful. Oh, yeah. And mine just true has never been an addictive substance. It's never been drugs, it's never really been alcohol, it's never been sex, it's always been work.
SamYeah. Which is in a lot of ways worse.
RhysIt is, yeah.
SamNo, I mean, I just as I'm a recovering al uh workaholic myself.
RhysYeah.
SamYeah. It's it's a never addictive. It's really hard to get past.
MeganIt's also this weird socially accepted addiction. Right? Where the other ones are like, what are you doing? Yeah.
RhysThat's so true. Um and it is because stress is Also totally a silent killer, by the way. Oh, hundreds of a hundred percent. Um interesting calling it like that.
SamWell, I I'm I'm not gonna ask you a question, but I'm just gonna say, trust me, I'm I'm in the same boat. You know, I'm along the journey a little bit, you know, being in my 50s. But um I've I've had to realize that. Not and not because somebody told me, it's like, oh, my body's not letting me do what I used to do. Yeah. And and so now it's like, oh, I can't do those things anymore. And I've almost I've had to like reorient what what what is affirming and and because I I know what you're talking about, that pressure, that that thing. Um and then it's it's weird when I have just like comp like or steady days is a better day. And I've now I've started to see like, oh, I actually get a lot accomplished on those days. I actually and the work I put out is significantly better. And uh, and and that's been its own rewarding system of like going, okay, okay, okay. And so like actually when I start feeling that feeling, I'm like, okay, I gotta go uh like meditate for 10 minutes. I gotta like reorient what what I'm like what is doing this because this is not that whatever I'm gonna do in this state is not gonna be as good if I can't but trust me, it's still the lizard brain goes, no, no, no, man, fucking go, man. You know, you know, more and more.
RhysYeah. And it's a weird thing when you realize um like that burnout and that that hustle, like, God, everybody, so many of us do it. And when you when you learn that that is not the way, nope, it's like, well, then how do I even fit into this Western society more if everybody's doing it? Do I?
SamActually, the thing that that the question that I asked myself that actually because um it was when I was right going, oh my God, like why can't I get this done? Why can't I do all of these things like I used to do? Like I said, like at one point I said, Man, I used to have two big jobs and like I had staff on both jobs and and and I was in graduate school and I was writing books and on team, you know, I was doing all of these things. And then it's like, why can't I do that anymore? Yeah. And my mind's like, did you ever ask yourself whether you should have? Right.
ColetteYeah.
SamAnd it's like, yeah, good question. Yeah.
ColetteYeah. What is being human for? Is it just to fucking work our life? Produce or have we been crafted by capitalism?
RhysI feel that but I guess that's a different podcast. Have y'all ever gone through something like that and been the thing that I think I'm struggling with is that I knew how to do all of that.
SamYeah.
RhysAnd it was so clear to me. Yep. What is not clear is wait, who is this new version of Reese? I don't even recognize like what? Like corporate project manager fitting into the hetero narrative. And then now like queer, now exploring medicine, paramedic chaplain, what like that's all Media artists. Media artists. And I'm like, okay, cool. Sounds awesome and sounds very neat. And like, I don't even know how to do all of that.
SamYeah.
RhysAnd maybe that, you know what? Also, that's growth too. Like, I know that that's growth. That's what growth feels like. Yeah. But it's like, yeah. And I ad nauseam talk about this probably every podcast this has come up where it's like because I'm exploring it.
SamI think you're vocalizing what a lot, I would actually say probably a majority of people in Western culture feels.
ColetteI think that's one of the gifts of the pandemic that people who were able to go home, not one of them, was not one of them, but it's something I'm noticing in people who are able to go home and work remotely. Um, the tempo of life really drastically slowed way down to this almost like weird time warp situation. Um, and that people now coming back, they're like, I actually don't want to go back to the way that it was. Like, I like the slow when you take yourself out of it.
RhysYeah. Or force takeout. I agree with that.
ColetteYeah.
RhysI remember being, I was unemployed between November and June of this past year, not necessarily by choice. This job market's hard. I had to leave my job. It was too becoming too much. But and I'll I'll end on this mic drop.
Do I Matter Without Achievement
RhysUm, I was like woke waking up for the like 90th day in a row without a job and living alone and all these things. And I was, and I do remember having the thought, which is sad, honestly, of thinking, like, do I even matter? Oh. And I remember that just that just came clear as day to me. And I was like, do I even matter? Without all the feedback, without the you're doing great, without the performance reports, without the money, without and like that's what came to me. Holy shit. In the silence of do I even matter? Yeah. Do it. That's not your hit. That's not you. No. Like Nick would say that the that voice is not your own.
FaithNo.
SamNo.
MeganWhat was the second half of your question to yourself? Do I even matter to who?
RhysUh it's funny. The first thing that came to mind is like, well, well. I used to matter a lot to uh the corporate job that I was in, the people there. And I think that was the one that first came to mind because that was my last experience of feeling like I mattered.
ColetteDid you matter or were you used?
SamYeah, right.
ColetteI think I mattered. Sorry, my anti-capitalism.
SamNo, I mean it's I don't even say it is his capitalism. It's just like, yeah, there just I think humanity in general has a tendency to objectify other humans.
RhysBut isn't that isn't that a fascinating question to oneself? Because it's like and and I actually and I will say this the second half. Um I am a fervent believer in God in my own way. Um and I remember uh there I saw on in on the Insta Maya Angelou was being interviewed and she was going through a s a hard time as well. And she's and I think it was an interview by Oprah. And Oprah said, Well, what helped you that time? And she said her mentors wanted her to say, say to yourself, God loves you. And so she said, Okay, God loves me. No, really say it. God loves me. And then she said, she said it third time, God loves me. And she just started bawling. Um and so I think that's what I did next. Yep. Honestly. I think I remember sitting up in bed and my cat was there, and I just was like, you know what? I'm just gonna say to myself, God loves me. God loves me, God loves me.
SamYeah.
RhysMe. And I remember, I'm sorry.
SamOh, okay.
RhysI remember looking at my cat and thinking how much I loved him. Uh and I said, the God that made this adorable, beautiful, ridiculous, curious, self-centered, adorable cat whom I love, made who made Finn loves me.
SamYeah.
RhysAnd at that point, those voices, fuck that. It didn't matter. Because, like, for me, the creator of the universe who made all these things, and I definitely believe in evolution, all that by the way, y'all.
SamYeah.
RhysBut like who made science and made this creation and the speck of dust to this podcast to m my cat, like loves it. I just truly feel that. Yeah. I don't know. Loves me for who I am and created me exactly at the essence of who I am. So I think as long as I understand or continue to learn, which I think is a lifelong journey, the essence of who I am. Yeah. And that God loves that, and then that's really all that matters.
SamYeah.
RhysYeah. But it's hard to remember that in the hard days. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because other people, like your friends who truly love you, can get close to understanding that and help you in that and support you in that. I think those are longest-lasting relationships. Um anyway, I really liked that.
SamYeah.
RhysBecause I thought that was wow, that's something.
SamI experienced it in a slightly different way because I I felt the same way about God, higher power thing. But for some reason it didn't click with me. It was like, well, of course, of course, God loved me. Duh. But then I remember I was watching I was watching something and it was, you know, one of those throwaway things. You know, it's like, do this in the morning, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I watch these things and I always hate them. But then this one, he said two things that were stupid, like, drink, drink water like this and that, and swish your mouth and all that business. But then the last thing it says, and every day look in the mirror as soon as you get up and say, I love you.
RhysYeah.
SamAnd the first time I did that, I cried.
RhysYeah.
SamAnd I was like, oh, whoa, what is this? It's too fucking early to cry.
RhysYou know. When it's the same thing. It's the same thing. I love you is the same thing as saying God loves me as saying the same. I mean, because it's all the same thing.
SamYep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
MeganThe the gravity though was in the me, right? Like it changed all three times you said it.
SamYeah. Yeah.
RhysWell, and I think that's why uh he Maya Angeli's mentor had her say it so many times, because if you really say it's a good idea, the first time it duh. Yeah. Uh-huh. Then the second time it's just like, uh-oh, here it comes. And then the third time it's like, whoa. And if, you know, again, that's my personal experience.
SamUm Well, see, that's the gift of like Eastern spirituality. There is a lot of the uh like repetitive chants and stuff like that. And I think we miss that in the Western world a lot. Like we could we could use to say, like, I mean, think about it, look in the mirror every morning and say, I love you slowly to yourself. Yeah. And like see what that does to your soul.
RhysSo I think the next thing I'm gonna do is to because I do have that internal homophobia.
ColetteYeah.
RhysI as a transmasculine person who's attracted to masculinity and masculinity, perhaps even in a woman or in a man, like the energy of masculinity. I think I have work to do to say God loves the version of me that loves men.
ColetteBut also like I would love to hear the answer to Megan's question, who do I matter to be me? I would I like as somebody who loves you, Reese. Yep, I want you to matter to you.
RhysYeah. And I know that logically. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to feel it sometimes. Sure. Yeah.
SamDo we gotta love you into loving yourself? Is that what we gotta do? Yeah, I that's my plan. No, when tag team, back to wrestling.
RhysWhen people say that, I just Sam, you've articulated the same thing because I'm getting frustrated. It's like how the fuck do I fucking feel that? I have felt it. The what is what was their book title? Perfection, blipping perfection, blips of self-love, blips of love, blips of love. I mean, it's when I put together a vision board, when I dance and do theater, when I like I I feel that.
ColetteYeah. But it's not a static feeling though, like and I I don't even know if I I think love's loving yourself all the time, you know. I I don't know if that's entirely possible, but can you just matter to yourself?
RhysWell, I I mean I don't know anybody else who spends more time thinking about themselves than I do. I I definitely have met folks. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more, Collette. Tell me
Small Acts Of Self-Care That Count
Rhysmore.
ColetteI don't know. I just think um uh mattering to yourself also looks like taking yourself to the doctor when you needed to go to the doctor, like taking your medication and like treating yourself like you matter. Uh and if uh the entire time I've known you was when you first started in your transition, I think, uh, and uh doing CPE and all of that and chap exploring chaplaincy the first go round. Um I saw somebody who was really prioritizing themselves. Uh and that's and I just wanted to see that keep happening, you know, like that you matter to you and that you treat yourself like you matter. And I think the love part comes when you just start treating yourself like you matter.
RhysWell, I definitely matter.
ColetteYeah.
RhysWe'll have to have a separate conversation because if you're seeing a drop-off and me caring about myself, that is No, I just think it's something no, I'm not saying that at all.
SamNo, this is actually a prioritize intervention. Yeah.
ColetteI know I think it is Yeah. Uh but in those darker moments, then it's like, what do you do then to show yourself that you matter? It's um to me, depression like when you when I would get down in those low spots, it's you you my you my brain is usually stuck in survival. Uh and I'm asking those dark questions, and that means that it's time for me to go do something to show myself that I matter. Oh until I fucking believe it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um what do you do? Uh uh whatever whatever's easiest. Um, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever's the most accessible to me in the moment. Even if it's just like, I'm gonna go make myself a meal um rather than like putting something in the microwave. I'm actually gonna like cook this meal. Uh um, I'm going to uh take a shower, you know, like we're just houseplants. I'm gonna go drink a glass of like water and really enjoy it. And like be mindful, be like be in the moment, be in the in the next moment rather than the moment that I'm in right now where I'm like low.
RhysYeah. Oh yeah. Well, I will say I I do love my bubble baths. Yeah, I do bubble baths. That's one of the things to me. And yesterday I bought a little nail file. So I've been, yeah, do you mind?
SamWell, there there you go then.
RhysYeah.
SamSo sometimes I think we overcomplicate it.
ColetteYeah. For me, just brushing my teeth is an act of care for myself. Little things.
RhysLittle things. No, I like that. I think nurturing things are important. Like later today, I'm going to sit in a hot sauna and just be there. You mean go outside? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry, yeah.
SamYeah, there's a cold front.
RhysI'm gonna go sit in a what the moving on for me. I want time for somebody else. But thank you all very much. I appreciate it.
SamThe floor is open.
ChristyI just I have some thoughts about what we were just talking about. Cool. Um I have a lot of thoughts.
Caregiving, Anxiety, And Doing Enough
ChristySo I work for 988, the crisis line. Oh yeah. And so I feel like we have um kind of similar jobs. It's like going, going, going, and it's high pressure. Um and you had asked earlier about if if it's the pressure that you think that it's keeping you there. And for me, um, it's a really hard job, and I hate it most days. I'm gonna be honest. I hate it most days. But I it is what I value. Um and it I value non-monotony.
SamOkay.
ChristyI cannot do a job that's monotonous. And I was wondering if if that has any kind of variable for you.
SamOh.
Rhys1,000%. I need that diversity. I think that's how my brain dysfunctions too. Is that similar for you?
ChristyYes. I like I like challenges every day. Because in the ER, you never know what's coming in. Which is what I like. Exactly.
RhysWhich is what I was trying to say too. And I would love your perspective is I don't think there's anything wrong with loving a healthy challenge. No. As to Western capitalism being a thing, and like I love a challenge and I always constantly have.
SamI think that's deeply human. Yeah.
RhysNo.
SamLike to to to be challenged and to rise to the challenge. Yeah.
ChristyWhich is it's funny because I love routine otherwise.
SamYeah.
ChristyBut in work, I like to be challenged. Um, something about monotonous work is horrible for me. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
SamI agree too. I I there's sometimes I go back to myself and I'm like, oh man, wouldn't it be great if I just clocked in and clocked out and did the same thing every day? And my mind, in my mind, I go to the scenarios like, feel the peace. You know, then I'm like, oh, I can't do that.
RhysI can't do that.
ChristySo what yeah, so um tell us more about um another thing we were talking about, what you were talking about, Colette, was uh the very simple things of taking care of yourself. I always end the conversations like that, uh, because it's so wild what you forget about when you're in really like survival mode. Yeah. It it takes virtually nothing to be intentional about anything. Yeah. You are taking care of yourself by intentionally thinking about breathing. Something as that takes very little effort, you know? Yeah. And doing that little bit of of breathing for yourself, uh, you're you're telling your brain like I am doing this for myself. Um and and that's it's it's important.
ColetteYeah.
ChristyYou know?
ColetteSo I'm curious, I'm sorry. I'm I'm curious, Christy, if like becoming a caregiver uh was a part of your script.
SamOh.
ChristyAnd that is a very hard question for me because I'm constantly wondering about that. I'm constantly wondering, am I caregiving because it's out of anxiety?
SamOh, yeah.
ChristyOr do I actually enjoy this? I don't know to this day. Yeah. I don't know. I every every fucking test, personality test I take, whatever your thoughts on those are. It's always, you're the caregiver, you're the caregiver. And I'm like, I don't I enjoy doing it, and I to this day I can't tell if it's out of anxiety.
RhysUm Do you enjoy do you does it bring you a sense of joy?
ChristyIt does. It does. That's good. Um so does drinking.
SamWell, yeah. What is what is a what is a better what is the what is the closest feeling it it gives you actually that you can think of or mixture of feelings?
ChristyUm I like nurturing other people because it reminds me of like what I need. I love to be nurtured, and so nurturing somebody else almost feels like I'm nurturing myself. Yeah. That's that's what I think. Yeah.
SamYeah.
ChristyWas that your question? I can't remember what your question was.
ColetteYeah, it just asked if if it's a part of your script. Yes. Um, it's interesting that you named Is it out of anxiety? Um, do you associate like an inherited script as something anxious?
ChristyWell, for me and me particularly personally, um I get very anxious about like making sure I'm there enough for my friends, for any any interpersonal relationship in my life. I feel anxiety if I'm not doing enough. Gotcha. And I always have to remind myself like, I'm doing plenty. I am doing plenty. And that's the anxiety I was referring to.
SamYeah. And I'm sure there's some stuff underneath that, which is yeah, which you don't have to talk about because I I you're reading my mail too. And I don't want to talk about it either.
ColetteYeah, but the script of like of of not doing enough is definitely something that women have inherited generation after generation after generation. And like we're lucky enough that we live in a generation where it is a choice whether or not you can be a caregiver. It wasn't like for our grandmothers and even for our mothers in some regard. Um, so just the access to the question is novel. You know?
SamI think the same for men, just on the flip side. Mm-hmm. That we can be caregivers. Yeah. Well, and it's like yeah, and have permission to do that.
ColetteA male nurse, uh no. Like stay-at-home dads. There's so many of those.
RhysCome on, yeah.
ColetteYeah. Yeah. So like we've there's this societally inherited scripts, not just the ones we were given by our family. Yeah.
RhysDo you feel uh pressure to answer that for yourself? To say, um, because I uh it so resonate with what you just said about like um I do what is my motivation, which I've mentioned on the pockets where like what is my motivation for wanting to care for others? And is it the right motivation? Um and yeah, do you feel like you need an answer for that? Or like because you were saying it was constantly on your mind. Yeah, I don't think I don't think the answer to that is is important, but I think about it.
ChristyOoh, I like that. Can you say more?
SamThat's great.
ChristyYeah. It actually it was mind-blowing just now, just realizing the difference. It gave me some clarity on that, that I think that I do actually enjoy caring for people, but I feel like me personally, I it it always comes with that anxiety, that additional anxiety of I'm not doing enough. And that is just something I need to work on. I don't know how to fix that, but maybe my master's in counseling. Yeah.
SamMaybe maybe you should get your doctorate in counseling. Maybe that's what you get to do.
ChristyI will figure it out one day with this education.
SamYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What Do We Owe Each Other
ColetteTo me, the c that begs the question, what do we owe each other?
SamI love when you always ask that question.
ColetteIt's just to me, the when you start to answer that question is when I is when I've started to get down into what do am I doing enough? Is what do we what do we owe one another? But what do you mean by that? Um, like what what do we owe to our community, our relationships? I don't like the idea that we don't owe owe each other anything. I and I hear it a lot amongst people when they're like, No is a complete sentence and you can just say no and not have to explain yourself. And I'm like, um, what? Like, sure, yes, as a concept, I get that and uh boundaries and all of that, but um I don't think the idea that you don't owe people anything, that doesn't track for me. That makes sense to me.
SamBecause in humanity is inherently mutual.
ColetteYeah, I think there's no self-made person. Yeah.
SamYeah.
ColetteAnd I don't believe I don't support individualism to its extreme, because that's what that feels like. Is that you don't owe anybody anyone means that I have to be independent completely and solely an individual. Like fuck that noise. That's exhausting.
MeganDo you think the uh trouble is in the word, like the definition of the word o? Because to me, o is you know, this obligation versus I want to contribute to my people, my community, my fill in the rest of your blanks, right?
ColetteRight. Uh to me, I oh, oh to me feels like an oath, an obligation. I I think we we do have an obligation in our shared human experience to treat each other with dignity and respect and mutuality, and that we should show up for each other. For me, I I have pulled away from the idea that we shouldn't should on anything. I know I think there's some things uh from a moral and and civic perspective, things that we owe one another. And that's mostly, in my estimation, kindness, a generosity of spirit, when possible, mutual aid and cooperation. Um not that's not something I'm necessarily going to like impose on other people, but I do want to see people like come around to that idea that we do owe each other something.
SamWell, it's you know, I think sometimes people forget there's just there's more than one definition or perception of words. And I think I've talked about this before, but like I don't think like the transactional meaning of owed is not necessarily a bad thing because we need to know when like the first time I stole at a store when I was five. I took something far and then acted like nothing happened. Because stole is a word. Anyways, moving on.
FaithSorry, y'all. That just set me off.
SamWell, no, it's like, but it's like, no, I owe that. It's I took something that was somebody else's and I need to pay for it. And I needed to learn that binary black and white, there is things that you owe. But then, yeah, as you mature, and hopefully as you grow, you're like, oh, well, I don't have to be told to do this. Yeah. Like it is, that is what it is. Like I do owe because Colette's a another human that has needs just like I do. We have a relationship. They give to me, I give back to them. That's yeah, I owe them something.
ColetteI think to me, the idea that there is value in the in in being human means that that there is something um that when somebody is giving of their humanity to me, I want to give of my humanity back to them. Not necessarily in a one-to-one transaction, but in a I value you way, that I see your worth. Um, and I'm going and I think that there's um that there's uh it's part of my code, you know, um of how I live my life is that w i I I hope it doesn't sound transactional, but it is this idea that um the further I come away from religion, I think I spent this time in my life where I was like, well then everything is true. And like, no, I think there are some things that are like true and good. Um and that that goodness is not up always up in the air. Yeah. That there is some objective reality uh worth honoring uh and participating in.
MeganYeah, yeah. I like that it's it's coming right back to what you were what you said, but then it seems like you kind of almost had I'm not gonna call it an epiphany, right? But uh you said as you were thinking about caregiving to others and then caregiving to yourself. Is that is the caregiving to yourself the part that brings up the anxiety? Where caregiving to other people is like, meh, yeah, no big deal. I could do that.
ChristyI have a a couple things. This is such a touchy subject. Um and I I it feels uncomfortable to admit that sometimes I I feel like I do caregive to avoid thinking about myself. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Um Yeah.
SamYeah. Just for the people that there was a fist bump. I think everybody here mutually fist bumps.
MeganYeah. It's a lot of head nodding.
SamLike, don't you you're reading my business. Christy's speaking for us all. Go ahead.
ChristyAnd the about about the care, I was being completely subjective in my reality. In my reality, I know that I push it to a limit to where I'm not taking care of myself. Absolutely. I will give I'm not taking care of myself because I'm too busy worrying about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
RhysAnd that's something I definitely good thing, then surely all is well. And I mean, I'm saying that too.
ColetteIt makes it even more seductive to be a workaholic in that role.
RhysExactly. Exactly what Megan was saying. It's like it's a socially accepted thing. To avoid caring for yourself because you're caring for others, so surely it is good. It's like that bullshit that you and I have talked about, Collette, of like all caregivers and healers must suffer. I'm like, fuck that shit. I do not plan on suffering like this the rest of my life. I plan on making at least $90,000 a year, if not more. Also caregiving.
SamThat's still middle class, Reese. You need to bump it up.
RhysI mean, ideally, that's like nothing. $130K is still middle class. There we go. But like, let's talk $250,000. Like, okay. Come on. Like, that's just come on. What yeah.
ColetteOur society doesn't treat caregivers like that. And then it makes it worse when we don't treat ourselves well, right? Yeah. But it is incredibly seductive. I I've experienced this as a as a caregiver myself, Chris, like vocationally. It is incredibly seductive to be more concerned about the suffering of others than my own because oh, what they're dealing with is so much worse than what I'm dealing with. Yeah. And it it just makes it so much easier not to deal with the pain and just to self-soothe by like caring for others.
MeganAnd then you don't have to sit with the very uncomfortable question of do I matter? Yeah. Yeah.
RhysWhat came after do I matter? Starting a job in the emergency department. Yeah.
ColetteOr the matter. The very vulnerable idea that someone else might have to take care of me.
SamYeah.
ColetteBecause if I have needs that I can't meet on my own, then I have to trust someone else to care. Like fucking.
SamWe agreed we weren't going to talk about this. This is starting to get into business.
ColetteBut this this has been a part of the ongoing conversation. Yeah. Yeah.
RhysBut I want to be careful. We need to be careful. I struggle. I'm still struggling with this. I'm still struggling with this. I need to be careful not to shame caregiving because I feel like, again, like I'm and I'm talking to myself. I'm talking to Reese when I say this, Therese. The do I matter? And then I just answer do margin. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting feedback from your service. Oh. Not for your patients. I agree with that. But to say, I now feel like I matter because I am helping somebody else. And it's like, there's nothing wrong with that. Again, talking to myself. I know I am.
ColetteBut is it the only thing that matters?
RhysNo, of course not.
ColetteAnd so, like, you know. And like, do you matter to you? And to do can you care for yourself? Pass past. Yeah.
SamWell, I mean, I I feel the same way. Like, I think I'm too the baby step I've taken is like, oh, that other person that I need to care for matters. And if I don't care for myself, I'm not going to be able to care for them as well as I can. So I need to take care of myself, which is also not the fully actualized version of what it should be. It's still a very complicated way of me still worrying more about them. But it that was at least a, I think, a step that made me realize like, nope, I, you know, if I can't care for this person, like I need to do something, take a nap or like just reschedule the meeting or do something so I can show up better for this person. I'm still getting to the part where like I desire that for me, not because the other person needs it. But I yeah.
ColetteThat's still sometimes the only thing that motivates me to do something different. Like, well, I don't want to teach someone else this. I don't, you know, um, I'm gonna work on this in myself, but for others and not for myself. But at least it gets you doing the work.
SamYeah. I'm getting rid takes. I I've noticed I've gotten a lot more um, how do I say like uh vocal and protective of like when I'm especially in my really close relationships, like Morgan in particular, like I'll I'll I'll advocate for myself a lot more than I do in any other relationship because I'm like, no, no, I matter here and I I this is what I need. And it's over stress you know, it's over assertion. But you know, I got it going somewhere, at least one relationship.
RhysYeah, that's interesting.
SamOoh. Did you ask did your um response to that question go into anything that you were talking about, Christy?
ChristyUh yeah, I guess I could get into that. Um my initial reaction was the same as yours, Megan, the scientist. Uh I'm gonna keep saying that. I'm taking care of me by saying it.
SamNo, there we go, there we go. That's how we get away runs.
ChristyI'll let you have it. Yeah. Because yeah, like the word perfect is icky. Um but I feel like I'm always changing all the time. Like I'm so different than I was last year and the year before, the year before. I never know. Um, I mean, there's some constants, but I I guess I would say that I like the idea that I can change. Yeah. Then change interest and whatever. Um I I like living an absurdist philosophy. Have y'all heard of absurdist philosophy?
SamYeah.
ChristyYeah, it's how it's what gets me through. Um, just like I don't know.
SamLife is absurd.
ChristyIt is. It's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah. Random.
SamNo, if you take a really a step back and look at some stuff, like usually psychedelics help. But but like if you if you take a step back and go, that is we're weird. Like the the things that we do and we find entertaining or like attractive, or even how we operate, it's like I still want to know from God.
RhysWhy did or why do we have an ego and then a superego?
ColetteDo we? Or did just some weird vn and white man decide to come up with some whatever.
SamYeah, he was anyway. He had a didn't he have a little bit of a cocaine habit too?
FaithLook, that dude's crazy. Dude, why wrote half of his shit off coke? Yeah, come on. Why are we Or more?
RhysAt the same time, probably. No, I feel a real big difference between ego and soul truth. Like it's weird. I don't.
SamOh, I see what you're saying.
RhysMaybe that's a whole nother discussion.
ColetteI think it's always just we just try to make sense of things and muddle through it the best we can, and we give some handles, but psychology's just people trying to explain the human condition when like there's so many ways to explain the human condition. I don't know.
SamThat's why I really like the whole I I love that society, at least how I'm seeing it, is is is coming back to a more that that we abandoned hundreds of years ago, which is a much more integrative approach of like, well, no, there's objective things or science, but there is a a spiritual component. There's this untangi intangible thing in humanity that that they they intermingle a lot, but you can't answer the full human without the other. You need both of them together in order to really get a handle on on what reality is and what humanity is.
ChristyThere's two wolves inside of you.
SamYeah. Well, even the indigenous people knew it. Yeah. Yeah. But see, isn't that like, doesn't that connect more than ego, sobrigo, it? Yeah. You know, the two wolves.
ChristyA bunch of garbage. Oh, yeah.
SamHonestly. But no, it's just like, but the indigenous people come up with two wolves. I'm like, fuck yeah, man, I got two wolves in me. Big dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't mean it. What were you saying? Keep going. I'm sorry.
ChristyI lost where I was going.
SamOh, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
ColetteNo, it is not your can I bring in a new script that um I feel like I definitely grew up with and is still reckoning with.
SamOh, go.
Disability, Capacity, And Comfort Playing
ColetteSo uh anytime anyone has a baby and they like aren't a totally shitty person, they're like, I just want a healthy baby. I just want to have a healthy, I want to have a healthy kid who um, and it's still something that my mom's uh I remember my mom saying it to me just uh maybe less than a year ago. She's like, I just want you to be healthy, which is hilarious because I have chronic illnesses. Like being healthy isn't and it is not possible at all. And I just wonder, um, and then growing up, I was like put on a diet when I was like 12, um, which I think a lot of of people who maybe struggle with their weight had an experience of. And it was always like to be healthy. Ended up having like a really bad eating disorder in my 20s because of it. And when my idea of what was healthy was super restrictive, um and ultimately led to a lot of the conditions I deal with today, irony of ironies. Um but I've I've been noticing now that I'm finding out some new things about my health and the constellation of things is um is that I I I like will do pretty much anything to feel good, like physically. Um I, for example, take Chinese herbs every day. I I see a Eastern a Chinese medicine doctor and a Western doctor and my Chinese medicine doctor, they are the nastiest substance you'll ever taste. It it looks like sewage water, taste disgusting, and I'm like, I really will do anything to be as close to healthy as I possibly can. Um and grapple every day with like what I can't do as a caregiver because I physically can't do it. And how I don't necessarily feel shame, but I feel a lot of pressure, some internal pressure to like get better so that I don't um so that I can stay in that denial in the dynamic where I'm not just always the care receiver, but I can still be a caregiver. Um, but it's showing up in my relationships. Um and honestly, I think becoming disabled is is one of the hardest gifts I've ever received as a human. I and I call it a gift because it is the absolute only thing that stopped me in my tracks, and I absolutely needed to be stopped. I was like constantly overworking, always taking care of other people, not really attending to myself. Um, and the illnesses I have are incurable. And in a lot of ways, I'm thankful for that because I think if I were to be cured, I'd I don't trust myself not to go right back.
SamYeah.
ColetteTo the old patterns of caregiving. Yeah. Um, and I do not like that. Um, but it's the most honest I could be with myself.
SamUm I mean, I think that's a that's a perennial truth, is you know it's i i it's been articulated a lot of different ways, but like people change through great love and great suffering, but it's almost always great suffering.
FaithYeah.
SamYeah, and it's it's it's like, yeah, uh you have to realize that you have a finiteness. And and that's what usually snaps you out of your script. And it's like, oh, there's a whole other world that I didn't even know about. And it has that has its own challenges though. Because that other script is very prevalent still. Like even that y uh you bring up a it made me think of I'm doing a we're going to a birthday party of a uh a a little girl that's in a foster care uh family group we we take care of, and and you know, she has all kinds of issues. But and her mom, her foster mom, uh spoiler alert, who's r uh revealing tonight to the group that she's getting adopted. Yeah, I know. And it's like, oh, I just can't wait to be there. But it's like she she knows, she knew that child was gonna be disabled the entire life. And and in fact, and and and all the thing, and but she's getting to experience the doctor says, Oh, she's never gonna do this. She did it. Yeah. And then the doctor never did, she did it. She's always gonna have problems. But yeah, but somebody who chose that is, yeah.
ColetteYeah, yeah, for and I think that's definitely affecting my relationships. I went on a first date with somebody on on Friday night, and I um I said off top, I was like, part of the reason I want the relationship constellation that I want is so that it's never just one person's responsibility to be my caregiver if it becomes the reality that I need a caregiver. Because you know the partners are the ones who are burdened first. Yeah. Or, and if they are, and that's what makes people leave. It's because they're like, I can't do this. Um, but I have to think about like do I I have, you know, am I seeking out a partner who then has some caregiving instincts? I doesn't feel that doesn't feel great, you know? That feels like I'm using somebody.
SamYeah.
ColetteUm, but well, I mean, where it's just a need and that's okay. Yeah. It is. It is that's that's the thing. Um, but I think because I've worked in healthcare, I've seen what it's I I've seen the bur when I say burden, I don't just mean the emotional burden. I mean like the the resource burden on a caregiver to take care of somebody who's chronically ill or or disabled. And it's like, I'm fine now, but um it's not always the reality.
RhysBut letting potentially and I don't think that's what you're saying, but I mean they'll make a choice.
ColetteYeah.
RhysThey have the uh agency to make their own choice. Exactly.
ColetteAnd that's what I always I I would tell uh patients who are like I I am a burden. I'm like, the only person who gets to decide if you're a burden is your caregiver. Um that was always hard for them to hear, but it's like you're deciding that you're a bur burden, but I don't think you're care that the person caring for you feels that way. Yeah. Like they just think the moon and star stars rise with you, and like can't why why don't you believe that?
SamYeah. And they yeah, they're tired. Yeah, they're exhausted, but Yeah.
ColetteAnd yeah, it's a lot of work to take care of you, but it's but they they they signed up for that and they want to be here.
SamThey're still here. Yeah.
MeganDid you so you talked about your um I say coming out journey, and then you talked about this sort of I'm not gonna call it a moment, but a moment in life where uh now disability is on your plate, right? Yeah. Did you have another big script shift in yourself?
ColetteYeah. Yeah, massively. Um Yeah, when I and it's I'm still sinking into it, still figuring out how to do it because and I also have a lot of uh the disabled friends I Do you have are like, I don't know how you work. Um, they're like with the condition and my conditions aren't as severe as they could be. And I think there might come a day that I can't work, and I'm planning for that reality that it'll probably be before I'm 65. I'd I would love to retire by the time I'm 50. Um right. And I think it's something that I could do if I if I set myself up the way that I think I can. But um that has resulted planning for that has resulted in like I do feel a sense of urgency to to work to a degree so that I can eventually have that reality. Um, because disability is a main reason why people become homeless. And that's a dangerous reality. Um, and with my conditions to be unhoused. Um and so yeah, it's slow it it's had to slow me down massively. It's the reason I'm no longer in the military. Um, I thought I would be a plan to be a career soldier. Um and I became disabled through the last you know, four years or so of it was kind of a progression throughout my eight years, but that started in basic training, but it got worse in those like last four or five years. Um and it it created a sternness in me, uh a kind of an eye, it kind of fortified me in a lot of ways, um, to slow my life down and pursue a life that wouldn't always be in the emergency departments as a chaplain, working in acute mental health, working in environments that required a faster pace. Um, I eventually became like a palliative care chaplain and and just had a much slower pace, didn't have to see as many patients. Um, but yeah, and then became an educator and like definitely my life was slower. I could slow my life down. Um, so it has resulted in me seeking out positions where I had enough power to either change the system or be have the freedom to change the way I work within the system.
SamUm and you've attained that, but yeah. Yeah. Like both yeah.
ColetteUm but changing systems is hard. And I'm feeling that now in my job, like I have to I I don't have a team right now. And so I'm having to do about three people's job. And you know, thankfully me and my boss we we were talking, like we just have to slow down. And it's like, well, how do we whenever the the the the work is still needing to be done, and there's just not enough people to do it, and people help is coming and and it's it's easing up. I can feel it already starting to ease up. But it's like, how do we change a system that has been stuck in the rat race? Yeah, how do we pull back, slow down, um become become something that uh somebody who has a sensitive system can can exist in it in exist in it.
RhysYeah. You might look into Colette, the idea of a comfort player. Comfort player. Yeah, I just discovered this. Um uh not Diana Tarazi, but anyway, uh one of the WMBA players who's played forever was talking about this. That she is, she said, I'm a comfort player. And I was like, Whoa, wait a minute, what does that mean? Because being a professional basketball player, for example, very difficult. You're constantly putting your body into very kind of aggressive situations. And there are some people, I followed the WMBA pretty religiously, who will just like throw themselves under the net to get the ball, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, That is not me. I'm a comfort player. I'm like, oh, wait a minute, what is that? Oh that sounds like me. Where it's like, I like to be in these intense environments, but I need comfort to feel I need to feel safe to continue to perform in that way. Where and so it's like, what does that mean for you within the corporate or within an organization? Yeah. What is what it would it be like if I want both, if I want to make a difference in these kind of high impact zones, but I also want to remain happy and healthy and safe.
ColetteYeah.
RhysWhat does that look like? Because that's not a question the corporate world is asking.
ColetteIt's the question my system is asking.
RhysYeah, and maybe maybe I think COVID is forcing people to shift that way a little bit.
ColetteYeah.
RhysBut like I think that's an interesting thing.
SamYeah. Yeah.
ColetteWell, it's something I started asking myself this year when I my health got really bad in no November, December. Um, I was like, in my clown ink, I couldn't, there was no way I was gonna be able to do my show as it was written. The second time I did my solo show, I actually re had to restructure some of the beats in it because there were things I physically did before that I couldn't do anymore. Um, but now it's even more so. I'm I'm thinking like, I'm trying to put together a show for the fringe festival, three acts. I'm like, okay, so I have to structure these acts around my capacity. Um not what I'm capable of, but what do I have capacity to do right now? Yeah. And that has been a struggle um to balance and figure out. And it means that I have to fuck it up sometimes and flare and and when I mean flare, I mean like physically be in pain. Um, same thing with physical therapy, like we're figuring it out, but it's a lot of experimentation that results in pain. Um but fi yeah, figuring out what my comfort level is while not completely shutting down and decompensating, which is what happened over the last six or seven months. Yeah.
SamWow.
ColetteBut yeah, that the the script of being healthy I I've noticed has been driving me more and more. Um and always wanting to get better. But then the last six, seven months, there was moments where I realized I might not get better.
SamYeah.
ColetteUm and like what would my life look like if I didn't ever get better? Was a question I was genuinely asking myself. And I think it was important for me to ask myself that question, because there will be a time where I'll never get better.
SamYep.
ColetteSo why not do some of that work now? Yeah. To figure out how to have peace with that.
SamI've I've asked myself that question the last few years too. It's like, oh no. Like things are declining. Yeah, you know, and and I will get to the point where somebody's gotta take more care of me. And that's a hard thing to swallow.
ColetteYeah.
SamHard thing.
ColetteEspecially when you're like the strong one, the people the person who takes care of everyone.
SamYeah. It's like or and on top of it, or if you've had people leave your life because you weren't the strong one. Yeah. So you've already been uh how do you say, um, punished for being weak. Yeah. Because the the the the world does not does not uh does not really affirm weakness too much. Yeah. And need. Whoo! Everybody else got some good therapy in? Did you did you need to get your therapy session in faith? Are you good? I'll pass. That's good. Wow. You think we should we should yeah, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll do that. Um, where are we at? Oh my gosh. That's you, Reese. Reese was so good to think. Sure is. Hey, look at that. Hey. So Oh no, that's actually me. Oh, look at me. I'm being being the worst person in the world. Here we go. Uh I should have just gone on that. But before we wrap up, I wanna I want to do the gathering, the
Gathering The Good And Staying Curious
Samgood. Um so if anybody could share like one thing that really stuck out to them today. Whether it's a quote, a resource, we had a lot of really good ideas, a lot of good stories. Anything that really connected with you, just toss it out there. Uh God, I'd have too freaking many. Good grief.
RhysWell, on the topic of grief, I liked um Megan's comment the most, which I'm probably stealing from somebody, but um who's grieving. That's a great one. Yeah, that is a really good one. And what does it tell you? I think that's great. Yeah.
MeganI I really latched on to Reese when you were talking about initially separating your work self with your self-self, um, and how you've kind of come to the realization that uh they are so intertwined, you can't you can't separate them. Um and I think after you kind of went on that spiel, I was like, I need to go home and do some some thinking. I think because I think mine may be intertwined uh uh too too much, right? Oh, I think I do need to find some separation. So there might be a balance. Yeah, yeah. I think I might need to find a little bit of balance. And then I was the whole time, I was like, that's my thing. That's my thing. I'm gonna write it down. And then you said capacity and capability, and I was like, Well shit.
ColetteActually, I think Abby is the one who shared that with me. That that tracks, yeah.
SamYeah, yeah.
RhysYou're like, why does that sound familiar?
SamAnd probably Abby's gonna look at you later, like, I told you this. I've been telling you this for about four years.
MeganYeah. Yeah, no, I I I feel like if I'm capable, then I have the capacity, but that's that's not the case. Yeah. Yeah.
ColetteWell, and and what you said, Megan, about um the can't, like, I think that's what I've been asking my wondering is what is my look like when I can't? And that's around the c the capacity piece. Yeah. Um, and how do I how do I mourn what what needs to be mourned, but also find come to a place where I can ex, you know, either find alternatives or um or peace without which we can't have. Not on a social fuck all the bullshit happening with the LGBT community. And fuck even more of the shit that's happening with the disability community, because there's a lot of fucked up that goes on there too.
SamThat's the buried lead, actually.
ColetteThat's the real buried lead.
SamYeah, yeah, yeah.
ColetteLike the fact that you lose your disability benefits when you get married. Fuck that. That's fucked up.
SamYeah.
ColetteUm, yeah. It's a thing that happens. Um anyway, yeah, but the the piece around the cants was really something I'm sitting with too.
SamI guess I I mean mine's selfish because like I of course I I get the opportunity to have my daughter here, but uh uh, I mean, I think there's a lot of things that everybody said that you know I really appreciated, but um and I'll try not to cry when I say this. But uh like I really for somebody who is pretty convinced that they were a shitty father, and to hear that I didn't fuck up at least one thing, like with like one of the things like I you left some things out of your coming out stuff. But like there's a lot of grief I have over it of things I feel like I sh I could have done better and advocated for. Um, and to hear that at least that's not how you articulated it now, uh that that's really good. Thank you. That's good to me. And I'm selfish, so I don't give a fuck.
FaithI have similar highlights.
SamOkay. Yeah. We'll leave it at that.
ChristyYou want to share the symbol.
FaithOh, I'm just I didn't realize that I hadn't told you that before, so I'm very glad that got out. Look at that. Yeah.
SamCuriosity brings families together.
FaithPut that on a shirt.
SamOh, yeah.
ChristyWhat a what a concept.
SamYeah.
ChristyOkay, got two wolves in me.
SamYes, two wolves. Two wolves.
RhysPut that on a shirt. I've got a rainbow wolf in me, and I'm like, no. Yeah. Dido.
SamDid everybody? Oh, did you have one, Christy? I didn't know if everybody went.
ChristyI just like the the hard-hitting questions. Colette's thrown at me. Oh I like those.
RhysThey have a tendency to do that.
ColetteYeah. Look at the caregivers all the time. So I uh it can't help it spit a little fire.
SamYeah, every time, every time I think I'm getting good at asking questions, and then I'm with Colette somewhere, and then they ask a, they I hear them ask a question, either to me or to somebody else, I'm like, fuck, man, that's a good question. Like, how do they come up with this? You know?
FaithI love it. Yeah, they ask a question. I spend like five minutes trying to think of an answer I could like bud in with, and by the time I come up with my answer, shit's already over with. Let me back in.
SamThat's great. Oh my gosh. That's good. Wow, a lot of good one stuff here then.
RhysAlrighty. Well, thank you to everyone who brought themselves to this table. This conversation could not have happened without each of your own unique and curious perspectives and experiences.
ColetteAnd if today sparked something in you, we want to hear it. Uh whether you share your gathering the good, uh, a question that you would love for the cue to vote on in the future, or any questions you might have, you can text us or leave a voicemail right in the show notes. Uh, one link in the show notes will get you all of it the gathering, the community, the conversation. We would genuinely love to see you there wherever there is for you. Um, but specifically at the Curious Crew in person. We have a couple of folks who've found Curious Crew. It's a real gathering. We are real people who meet in person.
SamReal people.
ColetteReal people.
RhysI'm a real boy. I'm not an ACO chat bot. I swear to you.
SamGod damn it. Now I gotta start calling you Pinocchio, and that's just not gonna roll off the top.
RhysI love saying that. That's my gonna be my trans mass biography. I'm a real boy. That's embarrassing. You know you'd pick it up, you'd pick it up in the bookshelf.
ColetteI would. I would. As long as it's there's a button I can push that has you saying that.
SamYeah, that's where the money. Okay. Oh.
RhysAll right. Well, the request that's fine. Thank you again to our guests and to all the curious people out there listening. We will be getting curious again very soon.
SamAnd we're gonna do it all together. You ready? Until then, one, two, three. Stay curious. Oh my god, that's great. Who's the only one that didn't cry? You, Megan? What do we gotta do? You didn't cry? It's on the card.
FaithNo, I didn't cry.
People on this episode
Colette Gaffney
Co-host
Rhys Lombardo
Co-host
Sam Hubbard
Co-host
Bruce France
Producer
Rhys Lombardo
Producer
Bruce France
Editor
Christie Moyer
Guest
Faith Hubbard
Guest
Megan Morris
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